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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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What was God doing?
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Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.
"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham
"We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI would kindly suggest that you spend more time thinking about what God WILL do when you stand before Him.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostEnter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell thank you for the suggestion, but how about an answer to the question?Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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There are two perfectly reasonable answers:
1) God exists within time, and in that case we have no idea what He in all His perfection would have had been doing, in this case. Nothing has been revealed about such things, as OBP has pointed out.
2) Time came into being with the Act of Creation, and in that case the question 'What did God do before He created the universe' commits the same mistake as asking 'What's south of the South Pole?'
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostSigh! Always the veiled threats with you lot.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostHmmmm.... you perceived a threat in that?
We're as threatening as a cute baby bear cub. It's our Patron that may be concerning. Except that atheists don't believe He exists, so why feel threatened? And did I just compare God to a mother bear?If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThere are two perfectly reasonable answers:
1) God exists within time, and in that case we have no idea what He in all His perfection would have had been doing, in this case. Nothing has been revealed about such things, as OBP has pointed out.
2) Time came into being with the Act of Creation, and in that case the question 'What did God do before He created the universe' commits the same mistake as asking 'What's south of the South Pole?'
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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If anything existed, even God, then there was in some sense time. There would be a "before" to creation else we argue that God 'started' at the beginning of Creation, which we wouldn't argue.
God was creating, is creating, and will be creating."Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostAugustine merely relates the joke; it is not his answer.
Note the conditional clause: If time itself came into existence, it makes no sense to ask what was occurring before that.
The question does not make sense under that condition because there would be no 'before' if there was no time.
It is certainly an interesting and perplexing question, but since Hawking, an atheist, and Vilenkin, an agnostic, essentially agree with Augustine regarding the contingent nature of normal sense of time, there is no need to even relate the question to God at all. If you want to show that Hawking and Vilenkin are both wrong, that would be an interesting discussion.
Whether time exists outside of this universe they can't know empirically anymore than they can know empirically anything else about what is outside of this universe. But common sense tells us that if the universe was created, then just like every other cause and effect action, its creation took place in time.Last edited by JimL; 11-05-2016, 03:51 PM.
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Originally posted by stfoskey15 View PostCreating other Universes. Or sumthing. I think it's unnoable.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIf time itself came into existence with the universe, then it makes no sense to argue that anything at all existed before the universe.
Originally posted by JimL View PostExactly! Some people like the argument that God existed logically before, or logically prior to the creation, but not temporally before, but if god did not exist temporally before creation, then he didn't really exist before creation. For example, if the B theory of time were correct, the block universe theory, then all of what we call time, past, present and future, exists in unison, nothing in that case would in actuality be the cause of anything else even if from a logical perspective it might look that way.
No scientist can argue that time itself is contingent, that it had a beginning, the only thing they can know is that, in consideration of the A-theory of time, with respect to the universe, time began to exist for the universe.
Whether time exists outside of this universe they can't know empirically anymore than they can know empirically anything else about what is outside of this universe. But common sense tells us that if the universe was created, then just like every other cause and effect action, its creation took place in time.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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