How does Allah forgive sin?

[Obsidian]

My point has nothing to do with confusion about what ethnicity "Allah" derives from. My point is that, if God can tolerate and forgive sin without any sacrifice, there is absolutely no logical reason why he would let the world get as screwed up as it is today. He would've told Adam and Eve, "Look guys, I'm disappointed that you ate the fruit. But just repent, we'll let it slide, and we'll make sure this world remains a paradise."

But instead, the Islamic God just lets the world go to hell for no apparent reason.

[barnasha]

no such thing as an islamic god

God Almighty is not the god of a religion, it is the Lord of all creation.

If the world is going to hell, it's because of people who refuse to obey God with their God-given free will.

[Obsidian]

Yes, you've said that already. But you haven't explained why God stopped communing with mankind. We were initially at peace with him. Then we sinned. The communion did not resume. Why not?

[barnasha]

You speak as if everything happens in a linear time frame, as it does for a man. What makes you think the process of creation - or God Almighty in general - operates in a linear fashion, as if an actor within reality? What makes you think the metaphors in the Eve-Adamic mythology do not apply to your life now?

[asmaa]

Deuteronomy
Chapter 2


32-37
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

muslim nuked the Japs , and Hitler was a sunni

[Obsidian]

Okay so you believe Adam and Eve are a mythology. I guess that means you think God created an evil and wicked world, not even trying to have communion with his creation -- not even initially.

[penguinfan]

Islam has very clear rules of war. No harming innocents, and only attack in self defense

Where do you come up with this stuff? Seriously. In Islam, it is perfectly acceptable to massacre men and enslave women and children. All four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence call for warfare against non-Muslim nations.

Umar and Muhammad in numerous hadith allow Muslim soldiers to kill anyone who resists living under the jackboot of Islam. Furthermore, the Koran, a book whose passages are clear, explicitly says to wage war against all non Muslims for all times. This interpretation is not only attested to by the consensus of numerous Muslims scholars but also by the actions and commands of the rightly guided caliphs.

Umar himself gives Muslims the green light to wage offensive Jihad (and massacre any rebellious natives) when he said:

"Summon the people to God; those who respond to your call, accept it from them, but those who refuse must pay the poll tax out of humiliation and lowliness. (Koran 9:29) If they refuse this, it is the sword without leniency. Fear God with regard to what you have been entrusted."

[barnasha]

Where do you come up with this stuff? Seriously. In Islam, it is perfectly acceptable to massacre men and enslave women and children. All four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence call for warfare against non-Muslim nations.

all 4 say mistreating or hurting civilians is illegal.

and also illegal is attacking for reasons other than self defense.

i dont think the crimes you are talking about are permissible by any stretch of any islamic legal code, considering these are key, unambiguous points in the Quran

[Dan Zebiri]

Barnasha,

I have already replied to your ludicrous statement (as you posted), and would like toknow yiur answer to my reply below..:
We can see that you're trying to be silly again...!

Jesus Christ was never 'a thing', and I pointed out specifically to : Jesus Himself, the eternal Word of God and the coming down of this eternal Word into the world!

Your pathetic attempt to trivialize what I specifically refered to above points out you have never given any thoughtful consideration to them except to accuse with typical islamist polemics like 'human-constructed idols..'!

Which hardly applies in any way to Jesus Christ at all! Who already said of Himself:

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man Who is in heaven.

John 3:13.

No such 'human-made idol' here, barney!

If God/Allah 'sent down' His word to become the Quran (a recitation or book) in islam, who are you to deny God almighty the right to send down His word that became a Human Beingmore than 650 years plus earlier??

Are you and / or Muhammad / and the muslims trying to be greater than Allah??

Now, THATS the greater Sin!

Dan.

Originally posted by barnasha
lots of things are in those books - does that make them gods?

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." (Matthew 6:14,15)
"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ, God forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

...if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented and amended (your conduct), lo! Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Quran 6:54)

"Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah towards those who do evil out of ignorance and then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. Toward them will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." (Quran 4:17)

[penguinfan]

all 4 say mistreating or hurting civilians is illegal.

and also illegal is attacking for reasons other than self defense.

i dont think the crimes you are talking about are permissible by any stretch of any islamic legal code, considering these are key, unambiguous points in the Quran

Define civilian. According to Islam, the members of the Banu Qurayza tribe were not civilians.

Saying that Islam forbids violence against civilians is correct...we just have different definitions of what a civilians is.

As for Islamic law permitting offensive Jihad, well, I'll do some research on that. I know a modern Iraqi Islamic scholar said that under a caliph, the umma is obligated to fight jihad.

edit: http://books.google.com/books?id=UHW...fox-a#PPA51,M1

read and weep

[barnasha]

Define civilian. According to Islam, the members of the Banu Qurayza tribe were not civilians.

Saying that Islam forbids violence against civilians is correct...we just have different definitions of what a civilians is.

As for Islamic law permitting offensive Jihad, well, I'll do some research on that. I know a modern Iraqi Islamic scholar said that under a caliph, the umma is obligated to fight jihad.

edit: http://books.google.com/books?id=UHW...fox-a#PPA51,M1

read and weep

civilian = non-combatant


During a war, the Prophet saw the corpse of a woman lying on the ground and observed: "She was not fighting. How then she came to be killed?" From this statement of the Prophet the exegetists and jurists have drawn the principle that those who are non-combatants should not be killed during or after the war.




Quran:

And Thou shalt not kill, and do not take any life, which God has made sacred, except by way of [Haq]-justice and law (due process/just cause); thus does He command you, that you may learn wisdom.

…Whoever took a single life (one soul), except if it be for murder or spreading mischief and corruption in the land - It would be as if He killed the whole of Humanity; And (likewise) if any one saved one life, it would be as if he saved the life of all people.

[fiddlin-john]

Too bad Barnasha is stillthe only Muslim around here to defend his viewpoints. I think this would be a much more productive discussion if we had someone who actually understood the soteriology of Islam and explained it to us. This debate is akin to "1st grade Jesus loves me this I know" apologetics....

[barnasha]

If you knew that I did not understand something about Islam, you could show it.

but instead you are making vague, passing references to that end, in hopes someone besides you will believe it.

[fiddlin-john]

Barnasha, this has clearly been demonstrated by your responses in this thread. Your unwillingness/inability to provide a thoughtful and relevant apologetic to the simple question laid out in this thread leads me to believe either you are ignorant to the theology of Islam, or unwilling to defend the theology of Islam. The fact that you continue to respond here does little to further your cause. Your responses continue brief retorts with little logical relevance to the posters' questions.

For instance, as a Christian it does not make God not almighty that I can explain His plan for the forgiveness of sins and His salvation for us. But in your world, to question or know, or act like you know is somehow belittling to Allah, even though rational Muslims have no problem presenting their theological positions with confidence. The vigor with which you post however, does not make your defense more credible. Keep trying though.

[barnasha]

my previous post may have been a bit too reactionary. I admit that I am not being helpful enough, and you are trying to understand the Muslim's views on things rather than the reality of it.

What does it mean to be 'saved'? In Christianity, I think that concept itself is different from Islam.

Wikipedia says: "Christian soteriology focuses on how Jesus Christ saves people from their sins, reconciling them with the Triune God."

Perhaps that's true.

When I think of salvation, I think of salvation from the unpleasant, i.e. squandering one's life or doing evil and suffering for it later. Salvation from suffering, or separation from God. Others would rightly say "punishment".

The quran discusses this topic at length and since it is the primary source for all Islamic theology and doctrine, we can easily refer to it until such a time as more resources become necessary.

Here is a quotes which are very useful in this regard:

But those who believe and work righteousness,- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear, they will be Companions of the Garden, therein to dwell (forever). (Quran 7:42)


So having faith in God (translated as "believe" in the above English translation of the Quran) and doing good things (instead of bad) seem to be the prerequisites for being 'rewarded' with pleasantness - i.e. avoiding suffering, torment, and/or punishment for having transgressed or done evil.


So before you ask about 'salvation' in Islam, I would ask that we clarify what does it mean, because the concept of (for example) being "saved from one's sins by accepting JEsus Christ as their savior" versus "not being condemned on judgement day" are both kinds of salvation and redemption but both very different.

Since the judgement of a soul belongs to God (in Islam as it is in Hebrew religion), we humans always must defer to the Almighty rather than our own doctrines which we form based on an understanding of him.

I think what you could be looking for is the kind of information found in this topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic..._Last_Judgment