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My Friend, the Missionary to the Muslims - and the "Visions"

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  • My Friend, the Missionary to the Muslims - and the "Visions"

    He had been conscripted by Saddam's Army during the 8 year Iran/Iraq war to serve in the Iraqi Army when he was 13. His father was a civil engineer in Baghdad who decided this, his youngest son, should serve with honor.

    The Missionary - let's call him Dave, just for grins - had sought to escape from Baghdad. Saddam was not allowing anybody to leave without a special stamp on their passport, because he needed all young men for the war effort. A friend of Dave's was from a quite wealthy family, and told Dave that he had bribed a government official to provide him the coveted stamp on his passport. He - the friend - asked if Dave wanted his passport stamped, also. In absolute disbelief, within 5 hours, Dave had the stamped passport he needed to flee Iraq. When Dave told his father, his father was quite surprised, but said no - you cannot leave, you are my son.

    Dave's uncle, his dad's only brother, had four sons in the war. In the next 48 hours, all 4 sons were killed in battle. So, 48 hours after telling Dave he must serve his country in battle, Dad was arranging passage through the airport with one of his own security guards, paying him the equivalent of $40,000 US to get his son out of the country.

    For the past 6 years, Dave has been visiting our area giving us updates on his missionary efforts to Muslim countries.

    This morning, I decided to ask him about the "visions" that Muslims are reportedly having where Jesus appears to them.

    At first, it seemed Dave was going to discount that whole phenomenon. He started by saying, "well, I don't trust any Western accounts of these incidents". I thought - uh oh...

    Then he went on to explain, "when this came to my attention, I added it to my routine to personally question any Muslim I could find who had one of these visions or dreams".

    He explained that, to his astonishment, he encountered hundreds and hundreds of such people in numerous countries, mostly in Algeria. But, the reason he doesn't like the "Western version" of the incidents is because they seem to glorify or place too much emphasis on the dream or vision, when, in most cases, it's just a very brief episode.

    He says that the visions are incredibly consistent - that a man in a white robe, often dazzling like the sun, appears and simply tells them to believe the Bible, or go to a specific church, or see a specific Christian pastor. The persons who have the vision don't seem to place much emphasis at all on the vision itself, because it's just brief, albeit clear, and it's the actual message that is important.

    One fairly common (but not always) feature of the man in white is that he's wearing a gold belt. One of the women described the 'man in white' more vividly, and Dave said, "had you ever read the Bible prior to this vision?" She said no. He told her "you just described the Jesus of the Revelation of John".

    Two weeks ago, he was in Algeria, in a Church of about 1,000 people. ALL of them were Muslims who converted to Christianity. He personally talked to over a dozen who had had the vision of Jesus (or "a man in white") telling them to come to this specific Church, and some of them said they were told to come talk to this particular pastor.

    I had posted about this sometime back, but it was only news articles that I read, or written accounts. This is the first time that I ever got to discuss it with somebody who was actually there, who had actually talked to people who had the visions.

    Dave, who had gone from Iraq to England, and then to the US, went to seminary in the US, and the "visions thing" just didn't fit his theology. He fully expected to be able to discount this as hype. Again, he emphasizes that the vision seems to be a "one time thing", and the people who have these visions never seem to fixate on the vision itself, but see it simply as an experience that pointed them to Jesus. In many of these cases, the subject was having concerns or doubts about Islam, and was praying for answers.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

  • #2
    Such appearance seem to be a common theme among many recent converts from Islam.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #3
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Such appearance seem to be a common theme among many recent converts from Islam.
      Yeah, it was just really neat talking to somebody who had actually interacted personally with such people.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Made me think of Nabeel Qureshi's testimony. His didn't involve Jesus from what I remember though.

        Comment


        • #5
          Apparently, Christians also see this dude in white...think it is the Prophet and convert to Islam....
          There is a story about the Prophet...that when his baby son died, there was an eclipse and many people, thinking it was a divine sign, began converting to Islam....but the Prophet said that the natural phenomenon had nothing to do with birth or death...it was a coincidence. I personally think that those who chose to convert to Islam should examine the claims and practices intellectually and then if they are convinced in their heart, then they should convert. To convert because of a superstition is a disservice to oneself and to the religion....?....

          However, since Christianity is not Islam...it may be acceptable in Christianity...if so, it is still good that people have found comfort in God, whatever path they choose.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            However, since Christianity is not Islam...it may be acceptable in Christianity...if so, it is still good that people have found comfort in God, whatever path they choose.
            Jesus is the way - the ONLY way - to the Father.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by siam View Post
              Apparently, Christians also see this dude in white...
              Should I chop off your head for your blasphemous treatment of Christ, like your guys do to Christians who speak ill of your alleged 'prophet'?

              think it is the Prophet and convert to Islam....
              Citations, please.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Should I chop off your head for your blasphemous treatment of Christ, like your guys do to Christians who speak ill of your alleged 'prophet'?



                Citations, please.
                First---apologies for any offense

                Not all Muslims who dream of a man in white assume it is Jesus Christ (pbuh) some assume it is the Prophet (pbuh) ---(...as Arabs also dress in white clothes)
                http://eshaykh.com/dreams/seeing-pro...ssed-in-white/
                https://qa.islam.com/s/31583/i_saw_p...ream#gsc.tab=0

                Some Non-Muslims dream of a person dressed in white and assume he is the Prophet (pbuh)
                "looked Arab"
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wuFFX3M0oY

                at 14-15 min---white clothes and named Muhammed
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12pXKzQX0U

                The stories I came across about a "man in white" causing conversion to Islam were from many years ago...at the same time there were also stories of Muslims converting to Christianity because of similar dreams---these days the stories seem to fascinate Christians and have become very popular.....but at the time I came across them, these were still relatively unknown.

                ...as a Muslim, I don't have a problem affirming Prophet Jesus (pbuh) "is the way"---that he taught of One God....the God that we Muslims worship. That the "sunnah" (the way---moral principles) of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) are also that of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and all the other Prophets (peace be upon them all) that God gave guidance to.....after all, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  First---apologies for any offense


                  Not all Muslims who dream of a man in white assume it is Jesus Christ (pbuh) some assume it is the Prophet (pbuh) ---(...as Arabs also dress in white clothes)
                  http://eshaykh.com/dreams/seeing-pro...ssed-in-white/
                  https://qa.islam.com/s/31583/i_saw_p...ream#gsc.tab=0

                  Some Non-Muslims dream of a person dressed in white and assume he is the Prophet (pbuh)
                  "looked Arab"
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wuFFX3M0oY
                  This one is an interview with a guy who is obviously seeking religious experience. He was dissatisfied with Christianity, though he claims to have had a dream about Jesus, too. Doesn't appear at all that he was a 'practicing Christian', but somebody seeking "something spiritual". Also, unlike the examples I cite, it's "all about the dream".

                  at 14-15 min---white clothes and named Muhammed
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12pXKzQX0U
                  OK, so in this one, the guy was dissatisfied with a church he visited (doesn't sound like he's a Christian) because there was a drunk sitting next to him and a woman, reportedly scantily dressed. He went with his boss into a Mosque 'because they had air conditioning, and the A/C in the truck was broke'. When his boss asked him if he wanted to go to Friday service, he agreed "because he's my boss and I didn't want to get fired" (or something like that). Long story short, this guy was already a Muslim for about 2 years, then has a dream.

                  NOTHING at all like what we're talking about, Siam. And it's from a Muslim propaganda film, not a news report.

                  The stories I came across about a "man in white" causing conversion to Islam were from many years ago...at the same time there were also stories of Muslims converting to Christianity because of similar dreams---these days the stories seem to fascinate Christians and have become very popular.....but at the time I came across them, these were still relatively unknown.
                  I don't think they're the same, Siam. The dreams and/or visions I'm talking about are very brief and consistently tell the individual to go to a specific church or pastor where they are told about Jesus. It's not about the dream - it's about the revelation of the Truth of Jesus Christ.
                  Last edited by Cow Poke; 11-07-2016, 07:06 AM.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    ...as a Muslim, I don't have a problem affirming Prophet Jesus (pbuh) "is the way"---that he taught of One God....the God that we Muslims worship.
                    But you obviously have a problem with Jesus (hitow) stating that... “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Jesus stated that He and the Father are the same - there is no room for a false prophet named Muhammad and your "god" is a perversion of the Father Jesus taught us about.

                    That the "sunnah" (the way---moral principles) of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) are also that of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and all the other Prophets (peace be upon them all) that God gave guidance to.....after all, Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew...
                    No, Siam. Jesus didn't preach "sunnah" - he preached and taught that HE was "the way" - the ONLY way. The early Church was called "the way" because they followed "the way of Jesus".
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      But you obviously have a problem with Jesus (hitow) stating that... “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Jesus stated that He and the Father are the same - there is no room for a false prophet named Muhammad and your "god" is a perversion of the Father Jesus taught us about.
                      I'd say demonic impostor is more accurate. Mohammed's own first impression of his meeting with "Jibreel" was that he was demon possessed. Even his own teaching on dreams would mean that Jibreel was really a demon.

                      Ibn Ishaq, p. 106—[Muhammad said,] “So I read it, and he departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart. (T. Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed—Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying, “O Muhammad! thou art the apostle of God and I am Gabriel.”

                      Sahih Bukhari Volume 9 114:
                      Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
                      The Prophet said, "If anyone of you sees a dream that he likes, then it is from Allah, and he should thank Allah for it and narrate it to others; but if he sees something else, i.e., a dream that he dislikes, then it is from Satan, and he should seek refuge with Allah from its evil, and he should not mention it to anybody, for it will not harm him."

                      No, Siam. Jesus didn't preach "sunnah" - he preached and taught that HE was "the way" - the ONLY way. The early Church was called "the way" because they followed "the way of Jesus".
                      I doubt Siam even knows more than a few snippets of out of context teachings of Jesus. I hate saying it, but I've never met a Muslim that actually knows and understands what Jesus actually taught. Too many Christians are ignorant of Jesus' teachings as well. If you try to show Jesus' teachings to them, especially those where He claimed to be divine, they will either say that you are giving false information, or a corrupted translation, or some conspiracy theory about the Council of Nicaea or even Paul corrupting Chrisitanity.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                        I doubt Siam even knows more than a few snippets of out of context teachings of Jesus. I hate saying it, but I've never met a Muslim that actually knows and understands what Jesus actually taught.
                        This is true of Mormons, as well. But I've never heard of a Mormon wanting to saw the heads off of Christians. Muslims are taught, of course, that the Bible has been "perverted", and cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

                        Too many Christians are ignorant of Jesus' teachings as well. If you try to show Jesus' teachings to them, especially those where He claimed to be divine, they will either say that you are giving false information, or a corrupted translation, or some conspiracy theory about the Council of Nicaea or even Paul corrupting Chrisitanity.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          This is true of Mormons, as well. But I've never heard of a Mormon wanting to saw the heads off of Christians. Muslims are taught, of course, that the Bible has been "perverted", and cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
                          I haven't seen any Book of Mormon passages that explicitly call for crucifixion, dismemberment, and murder. You can find this in the Quran and Sahih Hadith however.

                          Both teach corruption of the Bible, but Muslims shouldn't since the Quran teaches otherwise. In fact, according to the Quran Christians and Jews are supposed to Judge Islam by the "Injeel" and Torah respectively. Which means we have to conclude that Mohammed was a false prophet, because he contradicts what came before him.

                          I'm guessing you've seen similar claims then?

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                          • #14
                            I have made it clear I do not understand Christianity---and so, I cannot convert to "a way"/religion where I cannot give assent to its premises because --- I cannot comprehend them...
                            For me, Islam is a very good option because its premise of One God (as opposed to the Trinity) is simple enough to understand that I can give assent to it and it accepts Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his Guidance....as well as all the other Prophets...

                            "Sunnah" (the way)---are the record of teachings/sayings, deeds...etc of a Prophet.

                            John 14:6
                            5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?”
                            6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
                            7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”…

                            These words...read without the Christian interpretation...can be accepted by Muslims---because it is talking about the "sunnah" and submission to God's will (which is what Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and all other prophets taught). I saw nothing unacceptable in these words myself when a Christian first quoted them to me. (only later...when the Christian interpretation of them was explained did I realize that the words may not mean what they seem to mean....)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              I have made it clear I do not understand Christianity---and so, I cannot convert to "a way"/religion where I cannot give assent to its premises because --- I cannot comprehend them...
                              For me, Islam is a very good option because its premise of One God (as opposed to the Trinity) is simple enough to understand that I can give assent to it and it accepts Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his Guidance....as well as all the other Prophets...

                              "Sunnah" (the way)---are the record of teachings/sayings, deeds...etc of a Prophet.

                              John 14:6
                              5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?”
                              6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
                              7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”…

                              These words...read without the Christian interpretation...can be accepted by Muslims---because it is talking about the "sunnah" and submission to God's will (which is what Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and all other prophets taught). I saw nothing unacceptable in these words myself when a Christian first quoted them to me. (only later...when the Christian interpretation of them was explained did I realize that the words may not mean what they seem to mean....)
                              Siam, please watch the following video when you have time. I think you will find it illuminating. The speaker is a Jewish believer in the Messiah speaking about Jewish (and Muslim) objections to the Tri-unity of God. I hope you enjoy and benefit from it. Let me know what you think:

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