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Thread: My Friend, the Missionary to the Muslims - and the "Visions"

  1. #11
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    But you obviously have a problem with Jesus (hitow) stating that... “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Jesus stated that He and the Father are the same - there is no room for a false prophet named Muhammad and your "god" is a perversion of the Father Jesus taught us about.
    I'd say demonic impostor is more accurate. Mohammed's own first impression of his meeting with "Jibreel" was that he was demon possessed. Even his own teaching on dreams would mean that Jibreel was really a demon.

    Ibn Ishaq, p. 106—[Muhammad said,] “So I read it, and he departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart. (T. Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed—Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying, “O Muhammad! thou art the apostle of God and I am Gabriel.”

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 9 114:
    Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
    The Prophet said, "If anyone of you sees a dream that he likes, then it is from Allah, and he should thank Allah for it and narrate it to others; but if he sees something else, i.e., a dream that he dislikes, then it is from Satan, and he should seek refuge with Allah from its evil, and he should not mention it to anybody, for it will not harm him."

    No, Siam. Jesus didn't preach "sunnah" - he preached and taught that HE was "the way" - the ONLY way. The early Church was called "the way" because they followed "the way of Jesus".
    I doubt Siam even knows more than a few snippets of out of context teachings of Jesus. I hate saying it, but I've never met a Muslim that actually knows and understands what Jesus actually taught. Too many Christians are ignorant of Jesus' teachings as well. If you try to show Jesus' teachings to them, especially those where He claimed to be divine, they will either say that you are giving false information, or a corrupted translation, or some conspiracy theory about the Council of Nicaea or even Paul corrupting Chrisitanity.

  2. Amen Cow Poke, Christianbookworm, Raphael amen'd this post.
  3. #12
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    I doubt Siam even knows more than a few snippets of out of context teachings of Jesus. I hate saying it, but I've never met a Muslim that actually knows and understands what Jesus actually taught.
    This is true of Mormons, as well. But I've never heard of a Mormon wanting to saw the heads off of Christians. Muslims are taught, of course, that the Bible has been "perverted", and cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

    Too many Christians are ignorant of Jesus' teachings as well. If you try to show Jesus' teachings to them, especially those where He claimed to be divine, they will either say that you are giving false information, or a corrupted translation, or some conspiracy theory about the Council of Nicaea or even Paul corrupting Chrisitanity.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    This is true of Mormons, as well. But I've never heard of a Mormon wanting to saw the heads off of Christians. Muslims are taught, of course, that the Bible has been "perverted", and cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
    I haven't seen any Book of Mormon passages that explicitly call for crucifixion, dismemberment, and murder. You can find this in the Quran and Sahih Hadith however.

    Both teach corruption of the Bible, but Muslims shouldn't since the Quran teaches otherwise. In fact, according to the Quran Christians and Jews are supposed to Judge Islam by the "Injeel" and Torah respectively. Which means we have to conclude that Mohammed was a false prophet, because he contradicts what came before him.

    I'm guessing you've seen similar claims then?

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    tWebber
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    I have made it clear I do not understand Christianity---and so, I cannot convert to "a way"/religion where I cannot give assent to its premises because --- I cannot comprehend them...
    For me, Islam is a very good option because its premise of One God (as opposed to the Trinity) is simple enough to understand that I can give assent to it and it accepts Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his Guidance....as well as all the other Prophets...

    "Sunnah" (the way)---are the record of teachings/sayings, deeds...etc of a Prophet.

    John 14:6
    5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?”
    6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
    7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”…

    These words...read without the Christian interpretation...can be accepted by Muslims---because it is talking about the "sunnah" and submission to God's will (which is what Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and all other prophets taught). I saw nothing unacceptable in these words myself when a Christian first quoted them to me. (only later...when the Christian interpretation of them was explained did I realize that the words may not mean what they seem to mean....)

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    I have made it clear I do not understand Christianity---and so, I cannot convert to "a way"/religion where I cannot give assent to its premises because --- I cannot comprehend them...
    For me, Islam is a very good option because its premise of One God (as opposed to the Trinity) is simple enough to understand that I can give assent to it and it accepts Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his Guidance....as well as all the other Prophets...

    "Sunnah" (the way)---are the record of teachings/sayings, deeds...etc of a Prophet.

    John 14:6
    5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?”
    6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
    7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”…

    These words...read without the Christian interpretation...can be accepted by Muslims---because it is talking about the "sunnah" and submission to God's will (which is what Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and all other prophets taught). I saw nothing unacceptable in these words myself when a Christian first quoted them to me. (only later...when the Christian interpretation of them was explained did I realize that the words may not mean what they seem to mean....)
    Siam, please watch the following video when you have time. I think you will find it illuminating. The speaker is a Jewish believer in the Messiah speaking about Jewish (and Muslim) objections to the Tri-unity of God. I hope you enjoy and benefit from it. Let me know what you think:


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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    I have made it clear I do not understand Christianity---and so, I cannot convert to "a way"/religion where I cannot give assent to its premises because --- I cannot comprehend them...
    For me, Islam is a very good option because its premise of One God (as opposed to the Trinity) is simple enough to understand that I can give assent to it and it accepts Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his Guidance....as well as all the other Prophets...
    So, you can only "assent" to a religion you can 'understand'?

    Every book in the NT with the exception of Philemon deals with false prophets. Muhammad is a false prophet. Jesus warned of false prophets. You have a very perverted understanding of who Jesus is. In Jesus alone there is Salvation. The Bible says, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

    The visions do not "explain" Jesus - they simply reveal Him telling a Muslim to go to a particular Church or Pastor, or simply tell them that the Bible is the Truth. One of the recipients of the vision said she was exasperated with trying to know Allah, because, while you guys claim he is 'merciful', he seems to be rather bloodthirsty these days. She was forced to watch some of your brethren chop the heads off of Christians, and knew in her heart that this had to be just a bunch of power thirsty men using Allah as an excuse to murder.

    I cannot "give assent" to a false religion with a false prophet from a false book that teaches that Christians and Jews are to be hunted down and killed. You pretend that you have respect for Jesus, yet if He were alive today in the flesh, your 'brethren' would be required to hunt Him down and kill him. Despite your pleasant words, I'm not feeling the love, Bro.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    I have made it clear I do not understand Christianity---and so, I cannot convert to "a way"/religion where I cannot give assent to its premises because --- I cannot comprehend them...
    For me, Islam is a very good option because its premise of One God (as opposed to the Trinity) is simple enough to understand that I can give assent to it and it accepts Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his Guidance....as well as all the other Prophets...
    Ah, so you will only accept a God you can put in your own little box. I don't fully understand the Trinity myself, but the Bible clearly teaches the concept. Jesus is clearly God, the Father is clearly God, and the Holy Spirit is clearly God. They all do things, and say things that only God could say and be true. It's also clear that God is one. It's also clear that all three are persons.

    John 1New International Version (NIV)

    The Word Became Flesh
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

    Mark 12:29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

    I can comprehend Islam myself, but I could never believe it because it's clear to me that Islamic doctrine going back to Mohammed is evil, blasphemous, and downright satanic.

    "Sunnah" (the way)---are the record of teachings/sayings, deeds...etc of a Prophet.
    Which since you already admit you don't know what Jesus taught you can't say it lines up with that of Mohammed. You need to learn what Jesus actually taught before you can understand whether or not he fit what Mohammed said about Him.

    John 14:6
    5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?”
    6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
    7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”…

    These words...read without the Christian interpretation...can be accepted by Muslims---because it is talking about the "sunnah" and submission to God's will (which is what Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and all other prophets taught). I saw nothing unacceptable in these words myself when a Christian first quoted them to me. (only later...when the Christian interpretation of them was explained did I realize that the words may not mean what they seem to mean....)
    Those words are actually very clear. Jesus is saying that by seeing Him, that you are seeing the Father. It's a claim to divinity, and doesn't need any kind of special "interpretation".

    Jesus taught things diametrically opposed to what Mohammed taught. Mohammed claimed that he confirmed past teachings of God. Mohammed lied, therefore he is a false prophet. Jesus repeatedly makes claims to be divine. Mohammed claimed that Jesus was just like any other prophet. Some easily accessible information on the Trinity is here.

    Mohammed also contradicted the Torah, which is why the Jews of his time mostly rejected him. He couldn't handle that so he slaughtered them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Mohammed also contradicted the Torah, which is why the Jews of his time mostly rejected him. He couldn't handle that so he slaughtered them.
    Such a nice guy. Or, in Siam's parlance, "what a cool dude".

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  13. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  14. #19
    tWebber
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    @ Scrawley
    Thanks for the video...it was informative. A Jewish Rabbi named Tovia Singer has also addressed these issues from a Jewish perspective.
    Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages so many of the concept words in the Torah also appear in the Quran. The Hebrew "Achad" = Arabic "Ahad" (One). But, for me, the video raises more questions than it answers...for example, if Achad is a "complex unity"--why stop at 3? ...and so on.....
    I have asked such questions to Christians previously---and at the end of long discussions, the Christian usually concludes that it is a mystery.
    Personally, I think its the best and smartest answer a Christian can give---and I don't see any reason why the premise of a religion cannot be based on mystery---after all, there are many believers who are comfortable with such an assumption. But for me---because of my predisposition---this is a barrier....

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Ah, so you will only accept a God you can put in your own little box. I don't fully understand the Trinity myself, but the Bible clearly teaches the concept. Jesus is clearly God, the Father is clearly God, and the Holy Spirit is clearly God. They all do things, and say things that only God could say and be true. It's also clear that God is one. It's also clear that all three are persons.

    John 1New International Version (NIV)

    The Word Became Flesh
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

    Mark 12:29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

    I can comprehend Islam myself, but I could never believe it because it's clear to me that Islamic doctrine going back to Mohammed is evil, blasphemous, and downright satanic.



    Which since you already admit you don't know what Jesus taught you can't say it lines up with that of Mohammed. You need to learn what Jesus actually taught before you can understand whether or not he fit what Mohammed said about Him.



    Those words are actually very clear. Jesus is saying that by seeing Him, that you are seeing the Father. It's a claim to divinity, and doesn't need any kind of special "interpretation".

    Jesus taught things diametrically opposed to what Mohammed taught. Mohammed claimed that he confirmed past teachings of God. Mohammed lied, therefore he is a false prophet. Jesus repeatedly makes claims to be divine. Mohammed claimed that Jesus was just like any other prophet. Some easily accessible information on the Trinity is here.

    Mohammed also contradicted the Torah, which is why the Jews of his time mostly rejected him. He couldn't handle that so he slaughtered them.
    I have no objection to you being a Christian---and no desire to convert you to Islam.
    To you is your way and to me is mine.

    Those not exposed to Christian teachings may not see what a Christian claims to see in the texts---that is just how it is. I also found this to be so of the Torah (Bereisht)---a raw read was very disturbing, but when I read it with the help of a Jewish person I was able to appreciate some of its wisdom....

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