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Thread: My Friend, the Missionary to the Muslims - and the "Visions"

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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    @ Scrawley
    Thanks for the video...it was informative. A Jewish Rabbi named Tovia Singer has also addressed these issues from a Jewish perspective.
    Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages so many of the concept words in the Torah also appear in the Quran. The Hebrew "Achad" = Arabic "Ahad" (One). But, for me, the video raises more questions than it answers...for example, if Achad is a "complex unity"--why stop at 3? ...and so on.....
    I have asked such questions to Christians previously---and at the end of long discussions, the Christian usually concludes that it is a mystery.
    Personally, I think its the best and smartest answer a Christian can give---and I don't see any reason why the premise of a religion cannot be based on mystery---after all, there are many believers who are comfortable with such an assumption. But for me---because of my predisposition---this is a barrier....
    Glad you enjoyed it. Michael Brown actually debated Tovia Singer. The debate(s) are on youtube if you're interested. I wouldn't say that Christianity is based on a mystery, but rather it's based on revelation, and aspects of that revelation are naturally mysterious from a human standpoint. The God revealed in the bible is tri-unity in nature. Mystery comes into play when we try and reduce the infinite God to finite conceptual categories. God is transcendent yet imminent and "the word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).
    Last edited by Scrawly; 11-09-2016 at 05:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    Glad you enjoyed it. Michael Brown actually debated Tovia Singer. The debate(s) are on youtube if you're interested. I wouldn't say that Christianity is based on a mystery, but rather it's based on revelation, and aspects of that revelation are naturally mysterious from a human standpoint. The God revealed in the bible is tri-unity in nature. Mystery comes into play when we try and reduce the infinite God to finite conceptual categories. God is transcendent yet imminent and "the word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).
    ...??...are you saying that the transcendent God becomes mysterious because he gets incarnated into human?....I thought the purpose of incarnation was to demistify?....

    John 14 is an interesting quote---The Quran says Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was a word of God, so on its own, it would align with the Quran.

    But---John 12 and 13 explain that the "right" to be son/children of God belong to those who believed? (I presume this is referring to Jews?) therefore "son of God" can imply a person who believes in Judaism?---Which would be true of Prophet Jesus(pbuh) as he was a Jew....

    From the NT:----
    12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    The Quran discourages the "chosen people" concept---all humanity are created by God and his mercy and compassion---and grace--- fall on every human being.

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    In case anyone is interested in where Muslims get their ideas about Prophet Jesus (pbuh)---After Islam began, the mass production of paper made it easier to write books and so a lot of things were written down---these narrations are lumped as "traditions" and among the traditions is the "Israiliyat"---the stories, narrations, sayings, etc... from Jews and Christians of the East.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra%27iliyyat

    ---among the various Arabic literature, there are saying of Prophet Jesus (pbuh)---today there have been attempts to collect them into one place/book....
    an example is:---
    https://omarshahid.co.uk/2011/07/09/...mic-tradition/
    ---some example----
    Jesus (pbuh) son of Mary, said, “Do not speak much without remembering God, for by doing so, you harden your hearts. Surely a hard heart is distant from God though you are unaware. Do not, like lords, look at the faults of others. Rather, like servants, look at your own faults. In truth, humanity is comprised of only two types, the afflicted and the sound. So show mercy to the afflicted, and praise God for well-being.”



    Jesus (pbuh), the son of Mary, was known to have said, “Love of this world is the source of every wrong action, and there is much harm in wealth.”

    They asked, “What is its harm?”

    Jesus replied, “Its possessor is never safe from pride and arrogance.”

    They said, “What if he is free of those two? Is there still harm?”

    Jesus responded, “Yes, for by nurturing his wealth, he is diverted from the remembrance of God.”



    Some people once said to Jesus (pbuh), “O Spirit of God, inform us about the nature of wealth.”

    He answered, “The possessor of wealth always has one of three qualities: he either gains it by unlawful means, obstructs it from reaching the one who deserves it, or by accumulating it is distracted from worship of his Lord.”



    Jesus (pbuh), the son of Mary, said, “Love of this world and love of the next world can never reside in the heart of a believer simultaneously, just as fire and water cannot be contained in a single vessel at the same time.”



    here is a conversation between a Christian and a Muslim scholar about his view of Prophet Jesus (pbuh)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s5B8dKqlsA

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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    In case anyone is interested in where Muslims get their ideas about Prophet Jesus
    They totally made it up.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  5. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    I have no objection to you being a Christian---and no desire to convert you to Islam.
    To you is your way and to me is mine.
    Then you take Mohammed and Islam less seriously than I do. In fact, I'm rather insulted that you as a Muslim have no desire to convert me to Islam. It takes some real hate to not want to tell someone the truth about what will allow them to avoid hell.

    Those not exposed to Christian teachings may not see what a Christian claims to see in the texts---that is just how it is. I also found this to be so of the Torah (Bereisht)---a raw read was very disturbing, but when I read it with the help of a Jewish person I was able to appreciate some of its wisdom....

    You find that disturbing, but not the Quran? Your sense of morals is seriously twisted if you can't see the abundant horrors that lie in the Quran.
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


  7. Amen Cow Poke, Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    ...??...are you saying that the transcendent God becomes mysterious because he gets incarnated into human?....I thought the purpose of incarnation was to demistify?....

    John 14 is an interesting quote---The Quran says Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was a word of God, so on its own, it would align with the Quran.

    But---John 12 and 13 explain that the "right" to be son/children of God belong to those who believed? (I presume this is referring to Jews?) therefore "son of God" can imply a person who believes in Judaism?---Which would be true of Prophet Jesus(pbuh) as he was a Jew....

    From the NT:----
    12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    The Quran discourages the "chosen people" concept---all humanity are created by God and his mercy and compassion---and grace--- fall on every human being.


    Qur’an 3:31-32—Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

    Qur’an 30:43-45—Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.

    Qur’an 98:6—Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures.

    Qur'an 3:110 "Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God."

    The Quran says that Allah is a father to no one, so it contradicts the son of God title even applied to ordinary humans. John is talking about Christians by the way. They have become children of God through "adoption".

    The son of God title isn't exactly the strongest evidence of Jesus' divinity anyway. The Son of Man title from Daniel, Jesus identifying Himself as God's Wisdom, Him being the Word of God that through which the universe itself was created are far more powerful. Then you have Jesus accepting worship, Him claiming to be Lord of the Sabbath, Him forgiving sins, and the fact that He said He was to be honored in the same way as the Father. He claimed divine attributes and titles too often, and was even accused of blasphemy too often by His contemporaries to be simply an ordinary prophet. He was either a blasphemous liar, a lunatic, or He was telling the truth, and is God incarnate.



    ETA: Some of the horrors of the Quran.

    Qur'an 4:34 (Pickthall)—Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.

    Qur’an 23:1-6—The Believers must (Eventually) win through—Those who humble themselves In their prayers; Who avoid vain talk; Who are active in deeds Of charity; Who abstain from sex, Except with those joined To them in the marriage bond, Or (the captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (in their case) they are Free from blame.

    Qur'an 70:22-30—Not so those devoted To Prayer—Those who remain steadfast To their prayer; And those in whose wealth Is a recognized right For the (needy) who asks And him who is prevented (For some reason from asking); And those who hold To the truth of the Day Of Judgement; And those who fear The displeasure of their Lord—For their Lord’s displeasure Is the opposite of Peace And Tranquility—And those who guard Their chastity, Except with their wives And the (captives) whom Their right hands possess—For (then) they are not To be blamed.

    I shouldn't have to explain why having sex with slaves that were, according to the Hadith, capture with their husbands who were still alive.

    Sahih Muslim 3432—Allah’s Messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah’s Messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (4:24)" (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda period came to an end).

    Qur'an 65:4 (Arberry)--As for your women who have despaired of further menstruating, if you are in doubt, their period shall be three months; and those who have not menstruated as yet. And those who are with child, their term is when they bring forth their burden. Whoso fears God, God will appoint for him, of His command, easiness.

    This is really bad because for an Iddah to even be needed sex had to have happened between the man and his "wife".

    Qur'an 33:49--O ye who believe! When ye marry believing women, and then divorce them before ye have touched them, no period of 'Iddat have ye to count in respect of them: so give them a present. And set them free in a handsome manner.

    Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 65:4)—Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.

    Tafsir Ibn Abbas (on Qur’an 65:4)—(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: "O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?" (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.

    This just scratches the surface of the horrors if orthodox Islamic teachings and sources.
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


  9. Amen Sparko, Cow Poke amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    They totally made it up.
    Perhaps....
    But wisdom is universal regardless of the name/label attached to it, Confucius, Buddha, or Prophets.....
    Prophet Jesus (pbuh) is important to Sufi as they are generally mystics and Prophet Jesus (pbuh), in Islam, is also considered highly spiritual....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Then you take Mohammed and Islam less seriously than I do. In fact, I'm rather insulted that you as a Muslim have no desire to convert me to Islam. It takes some real hate to not want to tell someone the truth about what will allow them to avoid hell.




    You find that disturbing, but not the Quran? Your sense of morals is seriously twisted if you can't see the abundant horrors that lie in the Quran.
    hell---It is not enough to simply pronounce the shahada in front of witnesses and self-label oneself "Muslim"---Islam needs to be practiced (to do for God) and that needs a commitment and discipline. I can inform someone about Islam---but if they are serious about learning it---I would advise them to go to someone more knowledgeable than me so that they have the right information to make the right decision.
    It is not about hate---I simply lack the patience...

    I read the Quran in context...likewise there was wisdom in the Torah once the Jewish person explained the context....

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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    hell---It is not enough to simply pronounce the shahada in front of witnesses and self-label oneself "Muslim"---Islam needs to be practiced (to do for God) and that needs a commitment and discipline. I can inform someone about Islam---but if they are serious about learning it---I would advise them to go to someone more knowledgeable than me so that they have the right information to make the right decision.
    It is not about hate---I simply lack the patience...

    I read the Quran in context...likewise there was wisdom in the Torah once the Jewish person explained the context....
    None of this changes the fact that Muhummad was a false prophet, and Islam is insanity.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    hell---It is not enough to simply pronounce the shahada in front of witnesses and self-label oneself "Muslim"---Islam needs to be practiced (to do for God) and that needs a commitment and discipline. I can inform someone about Islam---but if they are serious about learning it---I would advise them to go to someone more knowledgeable than me so that they have the right information to make the right decision.
    It is not about hate---I simply lack the patience...
    I know that, to be a true Muslim you have to unquestioningly follow Mohammed and "Allah".

    Surah 4:65 Sahih International: But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission.

    Islam is about submitting to Mohammed, regardless of how horrible his commands and decisions were. If you even have a little bit of hesitation in following him, then you're not a true Muslim according to the Quran.

    I read the Quran in context...likewise there was wisdom in the Torah once the Jewish person explained the context....
    Exactly why you SHOULD be horrified by the Quran. In context it's even worse than without it. I've studied the Quran, I've studied some Tafsir, and I've studied the Ahadith. It's the teachings of a demon possessed[1], warmongering[2], pedophile[3], who also happened to be the worse false prophet in all of history. 14 centuries of death destruction and hate due to Mohammed's warped mind, and evil spiritual influences.

    1. Ibn Ishaq, p. 106—[Muhammad said,] “So I read it, and he departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart. (T. Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed—Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying, “O Muhammad! thou art the apostle of God and I am Gabriel.”

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 9 114:
    Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
    The Prophet said, "If anyone of you sees a dream that he likes, then it is from Allah, and he should thank Allah for it and narrate it to others; but if he sees something else, i.e., a dream that he dislikes, then it is from Satan, and he should seek refuge with Allah from its evil, and he should not mention it to anybody, for it will not harm him."

    So, according to Mohammed's own criteria on dreams his dream of "Jibreel" was a message from Satan. Not surprising since he delivered the "Satanic Verses".

    Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as far as he could. . . . When the apostle saw that his people turned their backs on him and he was pained by their estrangement from what he brought them from God he longed that there should come to him from God a message that would reconcile his people to him. Because of his love for his people and his anxiety over them it would delight him if the obstacle that made his task so difficult could be removed. . . . Then God sent down "By the star when it sets your comrade errs not and is not deceived, he speaks not from his own desire," and when he reached His words "Have you thought of al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat the third, the other", Satan, when he was meditating upon it, and desiring to bring it to his people, put upon his tongue "these are the exalted Gharaniq [Numidian cranes] whose intercession is approved." When the Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods and they listened to him; while the believers were holding that what their prophet brought them from their Lord was true, not suspecting a mistake or a vain desire or a slip, and when he reached the prostration and the end of the Sura in which he prostrated himself the Muslims prostrated themselves when their prophet prostrated confirming what he brought and obeying his command, and the polytheists of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque prostrated when they heard the mention of their gods, so that everyone in the mosque believer and unbeliever prostrated . . . Then the people dispersed and the Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, "Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion. He alleged in what he read that they are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved."

    The news reached the prophet’s companions who were in Abyssinia, it being reported that Quraysh had accepted Islam, so some men started to return while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said, "What have you done, Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from God and you have said what He did not say to you." The apostle was bitterly grieved and was greatly in fear of God. So God sent down (a revelation), for He was merciful to him, comforting him and making light of the affair and telling him that every prophet and apostle before him desired as he desired and wanted what he wanted and Satan interjected something into his desires as he had on his tongue. So God annulled what Satan had suggested and God established His verses, i.e. you are just like the prophets and apostles. Then God sent down: "We have not sent a prophet or apostle before you but when he longed Satan cast suggestions in his longing. But God will annul what Satan has suggested. Then God will establish his verses, God being knowing and wise." (Ibn Ishaq, pp. 165-166)

    2. Surah 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    Sahih al-Bukhari 6924—Muhammad said: “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and whoever said La ilaha illahllah, Allah will save his property and his life from me.”

    Sahih Muslim 30—Muhammad said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.”

    Qur’an 5:51—O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

    Qur’an 9:30—And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

    Qur’an 98:6—Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures.

    Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”

    Al-Bukhari, Al-Adab al-Mufrad 1103—Muhammad said: “Do not give the People of the Book the greeting first. Force them to the narrowest part of the road.”

    3. Sahih al-Bukhari 5158—The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

    Sahih Muslim 3480—It was narrated that Aishah said: “The Prophet married me when I was six years old, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine years old.”

    Sahih Muslim 3481—It was narrated from Aishah that the Prophet married her when she was seven years old and she was taken to him as a bride when she was nine years old, and she took her dolls with her. He died when she was eighteen years old.
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


  14. Amen Cow Poke, Sparko, One Bad Pig amen'd this post.

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