Afterlife in the OT vs. Afterlife in the NT

[The_Chosen]

Hi all,

First, I feel I should explain why I have posted the following questions here. Simply put, I feel this is a debatable issue that I want both Atheist and Theist imput on. That said, on to the questions:
The first question is very straight forward: what do we know about the beliefs of OT Jews on afterlife?
From what I know, quite a bit in that, they didn't believe in an afterlife persay or an afterlife that seperated the saved from the unsaved. The believed all went to Sheol when they died. They were concerned with life on earth, not after. Correct me if I am wrong.
My second question is, what do we know about NT Jewish belief on afterlife?
Again, from what I know, there are differing opinions on the afterlife amoungst the Jews with some believing in an afterlife and others not. I would appreciate any info you could provide on this subject since it varied from the different religious sects of the day.
My third question is, if the OT Jews were indeed God's chosen people, then were the rules different for them on afterlife since they didn't seem to share our modern day belief in an afterlife? Did they have an afterlife or not? What do we know about this?
My fourth question is a matter of comparison between the OT God and the NT God. We say He is one and the same, but the beliefs of His people in the OT seem very different from the beliefs of Christians (differing here from His chosen people the Jews). How can this be? I understand the difference between law and grace. That is not what this is about. This is simply about what happens after we die and how God's chosen people could believe one thing and Christians could believe another.
Of course, this is all based on my understanding of what OT and even NT and many modern Jews believe. As I said, if I am wrong in my understanding, please correct me. However, I would ask you to provide support for your claims using scripture and any other references, but please supply me with references so I can research for myself.
That's all for now. Have at it.

Danielle

[Solly]

This is an extensive set of questions (many of which are answered in John W Cooper's "Body Soul, and Life Everlasting".

However, just briefly, we should not make a chasm separate the OT from the NT, when all it means is that more was revealed after Christ came than before. For the Jews under the old covenant, Israel was the place of God's presence and blessing, a land flowing with milk and honey; for the NT we realise this is only a picture of the place we shall be in the New heavens and the new earth, Rev 21,22.

They did believe in a judgment to come, and a separation, as we see from Christ's use of the lazarus and dives parable. And we are told in the NT that the OT saints could not be made perfect without us, so that they died in hope of the promises God had given, and believed that even death would not end the matter, though they might have to wait a long time for the fulfillment.

[FormerFundy]

The Chosen asked:

The first question is very straight forward: what do we know about the beliefs of OT Jews on afterlife?
From what I know, quite a bit in that, they didn't believe in an afterlife persay or an afterlife that seperated the saved from the unsaved. The believed all went to Sheol when they died. They were concerned with life on earth, not after. Correct me if I am wrong.

I think you are wrong to say they did not believe in an afterlife. While it is certainly not emphasized to the extent that it is in the NT, there is belief in immortality there. It seems to be one sided though. While there are passages talking about a future for the righteous

For example,

1. Enoch and Elijjah
2. Job 15:26 (perhaps the oldest statement on the resurrection)
3. Psalms 17:15; 49:15; 73:24
4. Isaiah 26:19
5. Daniel 12:1

There is little or nothing about the future of the unrighteous. There is certainly no teaching about a fiery torment.
The word sheol is complex but essentially means "place of the departed" and usually refers to the grave.

TC asked:
My second question is, what do we know about NT Jewish belief on afterlife?

We know there was a division between the Pharisees and the Saducees. The former believing in the resurrection and the latter not.

There appears to have been a lot of influence in Judaism from the Persians. By the time of Jesus, the idea of a place of torment was pretty common as the story of Lazarus and the Rich man show.

TC asked:

My third question is, if the OT Jews were indeed God's chosen people, then were the rules different for them on afterlife since they didn't seem to share our modern day belief in an afterlife? Did they have an afterlife or not? What do we know about this?

If you accept the NT as authoritative, then you would have to say that they did have an afterlife and no the rules were no different for them than for others. See Rom 1-3.

There are a variety of views among even conservative Christian scholars as to what happened to those who died before Christ.
For example, there is the two compartment theory of Hades which says that believers went into a holding tank if you will until after Jesus died and then they were ushered into the presence of God. The other compartment of Hades was torment where the unbelievers were then and still remain today. Others hold that believers went straight into the presence of God then just as they do now.

There are of course many other views including soul-sleep, annihilationism, etc.

TC asked:

My fourth question is a matter of comparison between the OT God and the NT God. We say He is one and the same, but the beliefs of His people in the OT seem very different from the beliefs of Christians (differing here from His chosen people the Jews). How can this be? I understand the difference between law and grace. That is not what this is about. This is simply about what happens after we die and how God's chosen people could believe one thing and Christians could believe another.


All evangelical Christians would say that people are saved the same way in every age--by grace through faith. The object of the faith is always God but the content of the faith varies, i.e. how much they understood.

BTW, while this is what evangelical theology says, I no longer believe it. Although once a preacher and a theologian, I am now a skeptic.

[Fideist345]

Yesterday @ 02:32 PM post located here
FormerFundy:


BTW, while this is what evangelical theology says, I no longer believe it. Although once a preacher and a theologian, I am now a skeptic.

At the risk of posting this in the wrong forum. May I ask, are you a complete skeptic, or just skeptical of Evangelical theology? Can you say which other theologies, philosophies or belief systems you've investigated? Just curious.

[Fideist345]

Yesterday @ 10:25 AM post located here
The_Chosen:

Hi all,

First, I feel I should explain why I have posted the following questions here. Simply put, I feel this is a debatable issue that I want both Atheist and Theist imput on. That said, on to the questions:
The first question is very straight forward: what do we know about the beliefs of OT Jews on afterlife?
From what I know, quite a bit in that, they didn't believe in an afterlife persay or an afterlife that seperated the saved from the unsaved. The believed all went to Sheol when they died. They were concerned with life on earth, not after. Correct me if I am wrong.

Not necessarily "wrong", IMO, but maybe not specific enough. “OT Jews” covers everything from the Patriarchs to the late 1st Century BCE. That covers a lot of territory including the Babylonian exile and sects such as the Essenes. Little is really known about the Patriarchal age, except that some people will argue that Hebrews borrowed much of their belief system from the Babylonians (primarily from the Gilgamesh Epic). Maybe so, but if that were the case concerning an afterlife, the Patriarchs would have buried their dead under the floors of their houses, so that the dead person’s ghost wouldn’t hang around and haunt relatives and friends. After proper burial, the Babylonian dead all went to the same place in the netherworld (GE 8:34-9). This fatalistic sort of view seems to have resulted in a good deal of hedonism. Apparently, not a common practice among Hebrews. And it is necessary to contrast under the floor burial with ossuaries or better yet, being buried in a rock tomb.

I think in post exilic Judaism, the discussion about afterlife seems to become more prevalent, and some relate that, once again, to borrowing from other cultures. But it could have as much or more to do with postexilic though processes. Certainly, by the second temple period, “OT Jews” were talking and writing about an afterlife.

Sorry, but I’ll pass on commenting on the rest of your post, since once again, IMO, the subjects are just too broad to answer on a message board.

[FormerFundy]

Today @ 01:27 PM post located here
Fideist345:



At the risk of posting this in the wrong forum. May I ask, are you a complete skeptic, or just skeptical of Evangelical theology? Can you say which other theologies, philosophies or belief systems you've investigated? Just curious.

I am skeptical of all metaphysical or supra-natural claims.

I have not studied all belief systems but most of those that fall under the classification of Christianity.

I have delved some into non Christian belief systems but not to the same extent.

[Fideist345]

Today @ 04:16 PM post located here
FormerFundy:



I am skeptical of all metaphysical or supra-natural claims.

I have not studied all belief systems but most of those that fall under the classification of Christianity.

I have delved some into non Christian belief systems but not to the same extent.

I have never been an Evangelical, nor have I been a minister; but I did go through a lengthy period of severe skepticism. Frankly, I'm not sure the skepticism won't return, but I doubt I'd ever have made it all the way to atheism. Right brained, I am.

I'm also familiar with most Christian beliefs including EO and Eastern Catholicism. And over the last few years, I've read quite a lot in the Eastern religio-philosophies. The last few years helped quite a lot in being able to differentiate between rational claims and other claims that IMO, are more important.

I made the most progress by taking up Buddhist (meta) meditation. Life is different over here And much better.

BTW, I agree with your assessment of Matthew, but I think it's a later gloss (slightly post Jabneh) designed to combat a contemporary claim from a competing religious entity that claimed the disciples stole the body. Perfectly Okay, to add such a gloss in my book. At least back then.