The Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel.

[jds22]

I held the pretrib/dispy view from the time I became a Christian at 15 until I was about 40. Many of the verses the dispy camp used to reinforce their position just didn't sit right with my reading of scripture. I usually just put aside my doubts and convinced myself that they were the educated scholars and obviously knew what they were talking about.

One of those verses is Dan 9:27. I don't know how many times I heard and read that this is proof of the AC signing a 7 year peace treaty with Israel. I always had a hard time understanding the verse to mean that. I was always pretty sure the verse was talking about Christ but thought I must be wrong because everybody else sees the AC in that verse.

Obviously, I no longer hold that view of Dan 9:27. I do believe it is Christ not the AC. Once I was comfortable with that conclusion the rest of the pretrib/dispy postion started to fall away.

That was a lot of reading to get to my questions. So here goes.

1. Is Dan 9:27 the only place in the bible that the dispy camp uses to suggest the AC 7 year peace treaty?

2. Are there other verses that are used to suggest a 7 year tribulation besides Dan 9:27?

3. Am I correct in assuming that if this verse is talking about Christ, then the rest of the claims by the dispy camp(Lindsey, Hagee, etc.) are on very shaky grounds?

Thanks again.
Jerry

[John Goddard]

That was a lot of reading to get to my questions. So here goes.

1. Is Dan 9:27 the only place in the bible that the dispy camp uses to suggest the AC 7 year peace treaty?

2. Are there other verses that are used to suggest a 7 year tribulation besides Dan 9:27?

3. Am I correct in assuming that if this verse is talking about Christ, then the rest of the claims by the dispy camp(Lindsey, Hagee, etc.) are on very shaky grounds?

Thanks again.
Jerry

Although user Ty and I have disagreed on some issues, his similar idea changed my mind about that old Lindsey teaching I held on to.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

483 years from Nehemiah rebuilding Jerusalem around 450 BC, to Jesus around 30 AD.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Ministry of Jesus confirming the Old as well as New Covenant.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Daniel 9:27 ...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Stopping in its tracks with his curse on Jerusalem and the Temple due to their refusal to repent.

Matthew 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Daniel 9:27 ...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Temple destruction and punishments poured out on those who still reject him, until the end.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Then Jesus returns and the 70 weeks are complete. The gap of time in the midst of the last week is the time when Gentiles increase in God to fullness through the Gospel.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[headheart]

I usually just put aside my doubts and convinced myself that they were the educated scholars and obviously knew what they were talking about.

Welcome to TWeb, Jerry.

Which educated scholars were these ?
Were there not other educated sholars who hold your new view, which gave more than one verse to hang this new escatological view upon ?
How do you intepret the Hebrew of Daniel 9:27 ?

This is the context of your passage:

Daniel 9:20-27

20
“While I was still speaking in prayer, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and placing my request in the presence of the LORD my God on behalf of the holy mountain of God—
21
while I was still speaking, Gabriel the man of God whom I had seen in the previous vision, appeared to me about the time of the evening offering.
22
He gave instructions and this is what he spoke to me: ‘Daniel, I’ve now come to give you insight and understanding.
23
Because you’re highly regarded, the answer was issued when you began your prayer, and I’ve come to tell you. Pay attention to my message and you’ll understand the vision.
24
Seventy weeks(b) have been decreed concerning your people and your holy city: to restrain transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for lawlessness, to establish everlasting righteousness, to conclude vision and prophecy, and to anoint the holy of holies.
25
So be informed and discern that seven weeks and 62 weeks will elapse(a) from the issuance of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed commander.(b) The street will be rebuilt, along with the wall, though in troubled times.
26
Then after the 62 weeks, the anointed one(c) will be cut off, and will have no successor.(d) Then the people of the coming commander(e) will destroy both the city and the Sanctuary. Its ending will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war, with desolations having been decreed.
27
He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will pause both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator.’”

b 9:24 Lit. sevens; i.e. seven time periods of
unspecified duration, and so through v. 27

a 9:25 The MT lacks will elapse
b 9:25 Lit. Messiah Nagid; i.e. a senior officer
entrusted with dual roles of operational
oversight and management authority
c 9:25 Or the Messiah
d 9:26 The MT lacks successor
e 9:26 Lit. Nagid; i.e. a senior officer entrusted
with dual roles of operational oversight and
management authority

I hope this gives you something to discuss.

HH.

[jds22]

First of all, thank you very much for the detailed posts. However I really don't see how they answered any of my questions.

1. Is Dan 9:27 the only place in the bible that the dispy camp uses to suggest the AC 7 year peace treaty?

Yes or no? If no, can I have some other verses to look up?

2. Are there other verses that are used to suggest a 7 year tribulation besides Dan 9:27?

Yes or no? If yes, can I have some verses to look up?

3. Am I correct in assuming that if this verse is talking about Christ, then the rest of the claims by the dispy camp(Lindsey, Hagee, etc.) are on very shaky grounds?

Yes or no?

I hope I'm not coming across as rude or ungrateful as that's not my intention. I've learned quite a bit since I've been here and I really appreciate the time taken to answer my question. But, I'm not a scholar or theologian or deep thinker. I need pretty simple answers.

[headheart]

I'm not a scholar or theologian or deep thinker.

jds,

Well, if you want to understand the book of Daniel you are going to have to become one.

I need pretty simple answers.

Ray C. Stedman who preached nine messages titled
EXPOSITORY SERIES IN DANIEL , said that one really should begin by studying the whole Bible first, before you begin trying to understand the book of Daniel.

The fact that you spent 20 years holding to a views of 'Lindsey, Hagee, etc' means you have a lot of work still to do.

HH.
< click on me for the whole series in one pdf file

[John Goddard]

First of all, thank you very much for the detailed posts. However I really don't see how they answered any of my questions.

Yes or no? If no, can I have some other verses to look up?

Yes or no? If yes, can I have some verses to look up?

Yes or no?

I hope I'm not coming across as rude or ungrateful as that's not my intention. I've learned quite a bit since I've been here and I really appreciate the time taken to answer my question. But, I'm not a scholar or theologian or deep thinker. I need pretty simple answers.

Obviously my answer is no, there is no support for an Antichrist peace treaty with Israel for seven years. Especially when a Jewish state restored still rejecting Jesus (which is what antichrist is) has existed for over 60 years now.

[jds22]

Thanks. That's helpful.

[jds22]

jds,

Well, if you want to understand the book of Daniel you are going to have to become one.



Ray C. Stedman who preached nine messages titled
EXPOSITORY SERIES IN DANIEL , said that one really should begin by studying the whole Bible first, before you begin trying to understand the book of Daniel.

The fact that you spent 20 years holding to a views of 'Lindsey, Hagee, etc' means you have a lot of work still to do.

HH.
< click on me for the whole series in one pdf file

Thanks. I'm getting ready to download the mp3 right now.

[TyRockwell]

As John Goddard said, No. Daniel 9:26 says Jesus would decree desolations. This happened in Matthew 23:38, "Behold, your house (Temple) is left to you desolate."

The second decree is "Not one stone will be left standing on another that shll not be thrown down." Matthew 24:2
This happened in 70 AD, and fulfilled the second half of Dan. 9:27, "until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated [Temple.]
There are no unfulfilled 7 years, or three and a half years, of the 70 weeks of years. They were all fulfilled by 70 AD.

[jds22]

As John Goddard said, No. Daniel 9:26 says Jesus would decree desolations. This happened in Matthew 23:38, "Behold, your house (Temple) is left to you desolate."

The second decree is "Not one stone will be left standing on another that shll not be thrown down." Matthew 24:2
This happened in 70 AD, and fulfilled the second half of Dan. 9:27, "until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated [Temple.]
There are no unfulfilled 7 years, or three and a half years, of the 70 weeks of years. They were all fulfilled by 70 AD.

Awesome, thanks.

[seanD]

I held the pretrib/dispy view from the time I became a Christian at 15 until I was about 40. Many of the verses the dispy camp used to reinforce their position just didn't sit right with my reading of scripture. I usually just put aside my doubts and convinced myself that they were the educated scholars and obviously knew what they were talking about.

One of those verses is Dan 9:27. I don't know how many times I heard and read that this is proof of the AC signing a 7 year peace treaty with Israel. I always had a hard time understanding the verse to mean that. I was always pretty sure the verse was talking about Christ but thought I must be wrong because everybody else sees the AC in that verse.

Obviously, I no longer hold that view of Dan 9:27. I do believe it is Christ not the AC. Once I was comfortable with that conclusion the rest of the pretrib/dispy postion started to fall away.

That was a lot of reading to get to my questions. So here goes.

1. Is Dan 9:27 the only place in the bible that the dispy camp uses to suggest the AC 7 year peace treaty?

2. Are there other verses that are used to suggest a 7 year tribulation besides Dan 9:27?

3. Am I correct in assuming that if this verse is talking about Christ, then the rest of the claims by the dispy camp(Lindsey, Hagee, etc.) are on very shaky grounds?

Thanks again.
Jerry

Daniel was a prophetic dispensation given to the Jews, while Revelation was a prophetic dispensation given to Christians. Basically I agree with the preterists here. Dan 9:24-27 was fulfilled in Christ. I believe that other passages referring to desolations of the temple (Dan 8:13, Dan 11:31) was fulfilled by Antiochus who stood in the temple and forced the Jews to worship Zeus (the "little horn," etc.). As far as a false covenant, Hal and the gang are all wet here. There will be no false covenant, as this is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation or by Paul. Satan goes right after the Jews enraged from the outset, as soon as he is kicked out of heaven. But I do believe that the "willful king" in Daniel 11:36-45 is yet to come, and is the same person that Paul mentions (1 Thess 2:3), and is the false lamb of Revelation (13:11).

[John Goddard]

I believe that other passages referring to desolations of the temple (Dan 8:13, Dan 11:31) was fulfilled by Antiochus who stood in the temple and forced the Jews to worship Zeus (the "little horn," etc.).

Since the little horn comes up among the Ten Horns, and that they are Israel which is mostly Christians grafted in now, I think the little horn is going to look like a Christian and godly, but is not.

Since all this comes up here:

Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

Which is more like Rome, not the Seleucids.

[TyRockwell]

Daniel was a prophetic dispensation given to the Jews, while Revelation was a prophetic dispensation given to Christians.

Daniel was a prophetic, dispensation given to the Jews, while Revelation was a prophetic, dispensation given to Christians.
I am not a preterist, and "dispensationalist" prophecy interpretation is an abomination. The truth is not preterist, or dispensational, or amill, or post-mill.

Basically I agree with the preterists here. Dan 9:24-27 was fulfilled in Christ.

I believe that other passages referring to desolations of the temple (Dan 8:13, Dan 11:31) was fulfilled by Antiochus who stood in the temple and forced the Jews to worship Zeus

(the "little horn," etc.).

Wrong, The "little horn" was the Caesar at the time of Jesus.

As far as a false covenant, Hal and the gang are all wet here. There will be no false covenant, as this is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation or by Paul. Satan goes right after the Jews enraged from the outset, as soon as he is kicked out of heaven.

Right! Rev. 12:13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.(the Hebrews)
14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Christians, too)

But I do believe that the "willful king" in Daniel 11:36-45 is yet to come,

No. The willful king was Caesar in the time of Jesus. People always miss the Roman Empire in the time of Jesus in Daniel 11:36-45.

and is the same person that Paul mentions (1 Thess 2:3), and is the false lamb of Revelation (13:11).

No, the person in 1st Thess. 2:3 was Caesar, whom Satan entered, Nero, who became the son of perdition, as Judas was the son of perdition because Satan entered him.
John 17:12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 13:25. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
26. Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27. And and after the sop, Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

When Satan entered Judas, he became the son of perdition.
When Satan entered Caesar, he became the son of perdition. 1st Thess. 2:3

[seanD]

Wrong, The "little horn" was the Caesar at the time of Jesus.

You may be right. I think this is a toss-up.

No. The willful king was Caesar in the time of Jesus.

I've heard preterist argue this, but I have trouble buying this, as this implies a future event, particularly the "time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:" fits right into Revelation 12. And the Jews are delivered, yet during the 70 CE war, they were not delivered. Israel would be no more until the 20th century. I know exactly what you're going to say: it's a "spiritual" analogy, implying the Christians.

No, the person in 1st Thess. 2:3 was Caesar, whom Satan entered, Nero, who became the son of perdition, as Judas was the son of perdition because Satan entered him.
John 17:12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

I actually made a mistake and meant 2 Thess 2:3.

[John Goddard]

You may be right. I think this is a toss-up.

Ty is on the right track with Caesar, if you believe the 4th Beast here is Rome then the little Horn seems to come up after the 4th Beast is in power, after the Seleucids. Since the 10 Horns seem to belong to that 4th Beast and none before it.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.