The Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel.

[TyRockwell]

You may be right. I think this is a toss-up.

I've heard preterist argue this, but I have trouble buying this, as this implies a future event, particularly the "time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:" fits right into Revelation 12.

See the time frame. Rev. 12 Jesus ascends to the Father, "caught up to God". At the same time Michael fights for Christians, casting Satan down from heaven. In Daniel 12:1 Michael arises to heaven for that war with Satan and his Angels. At the same time, the Hebrews began to be persecuted, and the time of Jacob's trouble, the great (long) tribulation began, as there never was since there was a nation [the Jews.]

And the Jews are delivered, yet during the 70 CE war, they were not delivered. Israel would be no more until the 20th century. I know exactly what you're going to say: it's a "spiritual" analogy, implying the Christians.

Rev. 12:16, the earth helped the woman, not Michael. The dispersion, the 'diaspora' helped the Hebrews, not Michael. Since that time everyone, even Jews who became Christians have their names written in the book of life. "Your people" in Dan. 12:1 are the Jews who accepted Jesus.

[Kendra]

That was a lot of reading to get to my questions. So here goes.

1. Is Dan 9:27 the only place in the bible that the dispy camp uses to suggest the AC 7 year peace treaty?

2. Are there other verses that are used to suggest a 7 year tribulation besides Dan 9:27?

There are other verses that tell of several 3 1/2 year periods, which could be two separate periods of 7 years or one and the same 3 1/2 year period. They are:
Rev. 11:1-3 - which tells us there will be 2 witnesses who prophesy for 3 1/2 years;
and Rev. 12:6,&13-14, which talks about a woman who had a male child who was caught up to God (most scholars believe this woman refers to Israel), who flees into the wilderness where she is fed for 3 1/2 years;
and Rev. 13:5, which talks about the beast from the sea being given authority for 3 1/2 years

[MegaHertz]

There are other verses that tell of several 3 1/2 year periods, which could be two separate periods of 7 years or one and the same 3 1/2 year period. They are:
Rev. 11:1-3 - which tells us there will be 2 witnesses who prophesy for 3 1/2 years;
and Rev. 12:6,&13-14, which talks about a woman who had a male child who was caught up to God (most scholars believe this woman refers to Israel), who flees into the wilderness where she is fed for 3 1/2 years;
and Rev. 13:5, which talks about the beast from the sea being given authority for 3 1/2 years

Since it is that same Beast that kills the two witnesses their time-line has to overlap. The best starting point for the Beasts 42 months is when a fallen angel is released when the 5th trump sounds, that is also called woe #1, trump 6 is woe #2 and the 7th trump is the 3rd woe and it is Jesus's return and it will be the most violent day the earth has ever known. Taking the math a little further, the 42 months is over when the 7th trump sounds so that is the end of the Beast's 42 months which is only 3 1/2 days after the two witnesses time is over. (their main mission was to keep Jerusalem from being under Satan's control for any period of time outside the 3 1/2 days the witnesses lay dead. That also means their mission started 3 1/2 days before the 5th trump sounds, if they are the 'protectors of those having God's seal then their time starts on the same day the first trump sounds so all 4 trumps are sounded in that time period. Basically a natural disaster caused by debris from space would set up conditions for military law under the rule of the 10 men who represent the 10 clay toes in Daniel's metal statue. The iron are angelic beings, Satan comes from the sky and all others are released from the prison they were put in at the time of the flood.

The protected are the 144,000 from the 12 Tribes, being virgins they could be children rather than adults, married or single. They are protected from the effects of any of the trumps and they would be part of the 3rd woman in Re:12. Re:11 also has another group that is mentioned in Re:11 before the witnesses are mentioned. The temple Christian's prayers are heard is the one that is in Heaven in Re:4. Basically any Gentile that prays to God will be counted and that makes them also part of the 3rd woman of Re:12. On the day the 7th trump sounds 1/3 of the living will be people that pray, all other die on that same day, that is why it is called 'great tribulation' rather than tribulation which is what the previous two woes are called when combined.

Re:12 is a summation of the 3 most important events when Satan and mankind were involved. Eve is the woman in pain, the curse for her sin in the garden when the two bruises of Ge:3:15 were propheciesed. The next woman in Re:12 is Mary, mother of Jesus and Jesus was protected from death for 3 1/2 years before the cross. The last woman are 'children of Eve' that are protected during the final prophecies that see everything to do with the bruise to Satan's head, the 2 witnesses are the ones that have the earth 'do things' that results in safety for the sealed ones. That is to show that only 2 are given power by Jesus, everybody else is there as a witness, a lot will testify that they died during the woes.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Jerry, it is Christ in that verse. You are absolutely correct.

[MegaHertz]

The 'he' in that verse is God himself. All OT covenants were made with the one and only God, the same one in the verse below. The OT covenant that came into play prior to the cross was a fulfillment of the witness being in place for the prophecies of the promised Messiah begin to unfold. Jesus never made any covenants with anybody, He made some promises to His followers and by 70AD a lot of prophecies were fulfilled but the covenant Jesus makes with some of mankind is not made until even more prophecies are made manifest. Jesus said, "It is finished." just before he died on the cross, on the day of return and the wicked are in the grave and the ones meant to be alive for the 1,000 years are alive and standing. From the 12 Tribes it goes as far back as the OT Abraham and for the Gentiles it is the Church and whomever God wants from the OT will be alive on that first day of return. The 'clean-up' that takes 7 years and then another 7 months will be how the 1,000 reign starts, the 'house' and river and valley in Eze:47 will also be created on that first day and everyone will have to eat from that tree in order to have a glorified body and have the 'new laws' written on their hearts, immortal and sinless, same as Angels were originally made and the same law will apply to the people who are alive for the 1,000 years. The last to receive that law is the ones not alive for the 1,000 years also eventually come under that same law so it is not written down until that takes place. The laws in Re:21 would have been the 'rule' until the 10 Commandments came along. To that point fallen angels and their children (6 fingered giants) were the 'ones who controlled the sword' and those qualities were what God judged their world to be like prior to the flood happening and the giants that existed after that were exterminated in the wars that followed the 40 years in the desert.
We are under a 'modified' version of those 10 Commandments and that changes with the covenant made the people who come alive just after the last of the sinners are put into the grave. Even this 'eternal covenant' is modified after Satan is sent to the fiery lake as that is when the God's face is seen. Both instances when the change takes place is below, when Jesus said what He did it marked the 'remembrance' supper that changed what was eaten as the Passover meal. (I assume the tradition of standing and staying awake all-night is also to be observed, I score a 0% on that observance just for the record.)

Da:9:4:
And I prayed unto the LORD my God,
and made my confession,
and said,
O Lord,
the great and dreadful God,
keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him,
and to them that keep his commandments;


Re:16:17:
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;
and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven,
from the throne,
saying, It is done.

Re:21:6:
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

In that era (eternity) the ones alive for the 1,000 years will live in 'New Jerusalem' (1500 mile cube with an open roof) and the ones not alive will be given the area outside the (many gated) city will have children to the extent that each couple would have 100 children. Those children would be eternal beings (like Adam and Eve were so they have to eat to stay alive and when they reach the age of 120 years they are judged by God and the Lamb on if they are a sinner or not, once found that they are not they are given the immortality that the ones alive for the 1,000 years had.

[TyRockwell]

I held the pretrib/dispy view from the time I became a Christian at 15 until I was about 40. Many of the verses the dispy camp used to reinforce their position just didn't sit right with my reading of scripture. I usually just put aside my doubts and convinced myself that they were the educated scholars and obviously knew what they were talking about.

One of those verses is Dan 9:27. I don't know how many times I heard and read that this is proof of the AC signing a 7 year peace treaty with Israel. I always had a hard time understanding the verse to mean that. I was always pretty sure the verse was talking about Christ but thought I must be wrong because everybody else sees the AC in that verse.

Obviously, I no longer hold that view of Dan 9:27. I do believe it is Christ not the AC. Once I was comfortable with that conclusion the rest of the pretrib/dispy postion started to fall away.

That was a lot of reading to get to my questions. So here goes.

1. Is Dan 9:27 the only place in the bible that the dispy camp uses to suggest the AC 7 year peace treaty?

Yes. In their thinking, the 70th week hasn't happened yet, but it has. They put it off to a "future" tribulation.

2. Are there other verses that are used to suggest a 7 year tribulation besides Dan 9:27?

No.

3. Am I correct in assuming that if this verse is talking about Christ, then the rest of the claims by the dispy camp(Lindsey, Hagee, etc.) are on very shaky grounds?

You are correct. This verse is talking about Christ confirming The Covenant, and decreeing that the desolated Temple would come to its' end; which it did, in 70 AD.

Thanks again.
Jerry

My pleasure!

[TyRockwell]

Jesus never made any covenants with anybody,

Jesus began the New Covenant, prophesied through Jeremiah (Jer. 31:31) during the Passover meal on the night before he was crucified. Jesus is God, and he initiated the new covenant in his body (represented by the unleavened bread), and in his blood (represented by the wine).

[TyRockwell]

There has been so much conjecture and fearful speculation concerning the trumpets! In the Old Testament, trumpets were used to call the people to attention for an announcement, or to arouse troops for a call to battle. The people answering the call were acting on the message that accompanied the trumpets. It is for good things, that the trumpets sound! It isn't for evil to happen. Rev. 1:10 tells us that the 1st Trumpet was Jesus' voice, his message. Jesus announced good things, in his 3 and 1/2 year ministry, for those who would hear his voice and follow him. The other side of the situation, is bad news, and bad results for those who rejected Jesus message.
The trumpets are not fearful or dangerous for Christians, in fact, Jesus' message is our message, too. It is the gospel message, the good news of Jesus Christ, and the good news of the kingdom of heaven's forward march and expansion on the earth. The rumblings, flashes of lightning and earthquakes accompanying the first trumpet represent the glory, and presence and power of God in and on and through the churches, believers in Jesus, from the Day of Pentecost. Remember, the completion of the Seventh seal, is the full Word of God being completed and sent into earth. (The 1st seal being the first words that God spoke to mankind, and about mankind, from before the foundation of the earth, through the Garden of Eden) The other seals are the rest of God's written Word, on through the rest of the OT. This mainly means the 7th seal is the completion of the writing of the New Testament. The word brings salvation to one who believes it, but it brings judgment upon those who reject it, since they are rejecting the Savior and God's blessings that accompany salvation. Trumpets 2 through six, are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, all with the same message of Jesus, the Gospel, and his kingdom here on earth. The trumpets are Christians spreading the message of Jesus, and the kingdom throughout the earth. The more the message spreads, the more the Church is exercising its dominion in the earth over the kingdoms of this world, and over spiritual principalities and powers, princes of the darkness in the word, and spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Ephesians 6:10-12.
You are right, that Jesus returns at the seventh trumpet, but your ideas of fearful doom during the other six must be balanced with the understanding that the Word, and the trumpets, have been SOUNDING since Jesus, the First Trumpet, in his earthly ministry. They are not all future! The trumpets of the Word bring salvation, healing, blessing to believers, but the "trumpeted" Word of God is also the Sword of the Spirit with which we do battle against the kingdom of darkness, and its influence on the kingdoms of men in this world.
As to the Rev. 12 woman. She is OT Israel! She was God's method of getting His Word into the earth, and she gave birth to "the Word made flesh," Jesus. All the descriptions, apply to the twelve tribes, and Jacob's dream; the crown of twelve stars, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, was OT Israel, whose husband was God. The SAME WOMAN, Israel, who gave birth to Jesus, after Jesus' ascension to God and his throne, was attacked by Satan, when Satan lost his place to accuse the brethren, and Satan was cast down to the ground by Michael and his angels, who fight on behalf of believers, the Church, now. There is no "Eve" in Rev. 12, and certainly not '3 women.'
There is NO 7 YEAR PEACE TREATY, involving the antichrist. That '7 year' thing, is an idea derived from dispy/rapture/futurist misunderstanding of a 'future' so-called tribulation. Listen, it has already been well established, that the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled in the first century. The tribulation began in the apostles ministry, as Jesus said (Matt. 24:9-11). It has been on-going, and is reaching its end. See, it isn't as bad as you thought, is it? It was the worst in the 1st two centuries of the Church, but Jesus said it will "never be equaled again." (Matthew 24:21)