For Silent Running

[technomage]

First, i'm not familliar with the terms,"N' "N-1" parties

They're variables--N stands for the number of parties in the dispute, but complex theological disputes can have more than two parties, all making mutually exclusive assertions. (Believe me, it's not just Christianity that this happens in, though Christians are not immune.)

Second, you have not yet defined "Christian" for me, allow me.

With all due respect--no. The Baptists (especially the Southern Baptists) have an idiosyncratic definition of Christian, a tendency towards the very schisms mentioned earlier in the thread, and a propensity for calling other Christians who happen to be on the far side of a schism "Not Real Christians (tm)." If I want a splendid example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, I need look no farther than the SBC.

Let us define Christianity as "a monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who Christians know as Christ, the Son of God and the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible." While this is a very simple definition, it allows us to work with already existing categories, such as Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant: also, the simplicity of the definition allows us to acknowledge groups that claim to be Christian but actually fall outside of the traditional historical bounds of the religion, such as Mormonism.

That being said, the balance of your post deals entirely with your definition of Christianity. Please understand that while I respect your opinions, and your rights to hold those opinions, those opinions are not useful in this situation,. Nonetheless, if you want to rephrase your post, using the definition of Christianity above (or at least one we can agree upon), please feel free. But before you do, know this: I am not "picking" on Christians nor on Christianity. I've said some (slightly) harsh things about Christianity in this thread, but I've also hinted (and now explicitly state) that the events I am criticizing Christianity for are events that can (and have) happened to any other religion out there, including my own Wicca. So no, don't think I'm saying Christianity is the be-all and end-all of evil: it's no worse and no better than any other organization filled with human beings.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

With all due respect

Amen! I just finished reading this entire thread and found the civility between you and everyone else very pleasing. My compliments to all.

[libreesprit]

I have to correct something ,or make it clearer . My version of astrology is sidereal,shows that the universe is logical ,ordered
and that in fact we live in an eternal garden of cycles of time .'A time and place for every purpose under heaven'.However ,even then ,we have to chose what we grow in our garden.We might sow the seedsof some terrible fate .When Neptune is in it's fallen sign of Capricorn it does not have the ability to dissolve bad ,which is in my opinion it's role [in God'splan ,programme ].When it is connected to jupiter or venus it brings enlightenment and perfect love [not lust ,that is pluto, scorpios' role ,to debase.] ,is connected to the eternal ,while pluto scorpio ,destroys ,cuts short,decays.
So Jesus ,the light of the world, came in the Piscean and LAST AGE to dissolve sin ,allowing love as opposed to lust to dominate our lives.
During this[16yrs ] Neptune has not been able to do this in the sign of saturn ,and we have seen how many people have taken advantage ,like looters ,when the store is not watched. The last time this happened was in the 1830's and 40's.
For me in modern terms it is a bit like when you do not have your 'virus' controls etc you are immediately invaded by vileness .
God withdraws His power and light, to allow us to see what happens when we are not connnected to Him. You can see it in individuals ,who do not have this connection ,they have no power to stop the descent of corruption in their lives.
I hope you will allow me a little forecasting here .I think that the great richard dawkins will be very hard put to push his atheism from the new year as the light goes on again ,after 16yrs of lies.
We will see .My regards to all, Theresa.
P.S. The planet carries the energy of the zodiac sign.Most people who purport to astrologers are none but falsifiers,not many
are 'good' and that is one reason they would be considered ,and rightly ,to be dangerous .It is not the astrology ,but the astrologers for their purpose is too often corrupt ,and their knowledge to little.

[technomage]

You are making the mistake that you can know J.C. with facts alone.

Actually, I am not--but I also refuse to make the mistake of believing that faith can contradict fact.

I have no "evidence" (in the scientific sense) for or against the existence of God--science is not capable of resolving the question of the existence of God. Yet despite a lack of evidence, I believe. I am a Theist, and am quite devout. By the same token, I do have a substantial amount of evidence against (for instance) the historicity of the Exodus as postulated in the Bible. No amount of faith in the historicity of the Exodus will contradict the fact that the Exodus did not occur as a historical event.

Now, with Jesus Christ, I do have sufficient evidence to say that there was a historical person named Jesus. But the claims of the Resurrection, and the assertion that Jesus is a member of a triune God? These are claims that contradict fact--and no amount of faith can overcome that deficit.

As a side note: I also do not hold astrology (siderial or tropical) to have any real significance in our lives. To slightly misquote Shakespeare, "The fault, dear friend, lies not in our stars, but in our selves." If you wish to take a mystical view of things, I have surpassed the Seven Spheres, and while I have learned the lessons they taught, I can no longer credit them for the good in my life, nor fault them for the ill. (That last sentence is a Mystery: you cannot understand it unless and until you have experienced it.)

[TheologicalDisc]

By the same token, I do have a substantial amount of evidence against (for instance) the historicity of the Exodus as postulated in the Bible. No amount of faith in the historicity of the Exodus will contradict the fact that the Exodus did not occur as a historical event.

Really? and what might that evidence be?

Now, with Jesus Christ, I do have sufficient evidence to say that there was a historical person named Jesus. But the claims of the Resurrection, and the assertion that Jesus is a member of a triune God? These are claims that contradict fact--and no amount of faith can overcome that deficit.

What facts do they contradict? or are you just asserting nonsense? show me a fact that states Jesus is not a member of a Triune God.

[technomage]

<snip>

As you have not dealt forthrightly with Pixie's critique of your previous arguments, and have not dealt knowledgeably with ... well, darn near any critique of your position that I have read, please do not feel slighted that I have you on ignore.

You certainly may, if you wish, feel slighted that I'm willing to answer these questions if honest inquirers answer.

[TheologicalDisc]

As you have not dealt forthrightly with Pixie's critique of your previous arguments, and have not dealt knowledgeably with ... well, darn near any critique of your position that I have read, please do not feel slighted that I have you on ignore.

You certainly may, if you wish, feel slighted that I'm willing to answer these questions if honest inquirers answer.

1. No one has been able to refute that position at all.
2. My verbal thrashing of pixie has no bearing whatsoever on your inability to prevent evidence for your claims, nice. I guess, by your own logic, everyone else can put you on ignore because you have not dealt forthrightly with SeanD's critique of your arguments.

[tmancour]

to Silent Running
this looks like a died out blog seeing the date of postings! (i hope i get a response from you)
i have but one question for you,
this is a very personal question, i hope you don;t mind
in light of your conviction and confidence of your supposedly personally justified, and sometime subjective and other times objective beliefs, I'm just curious,
although you appear to have a personal conviction that historical Christianity is embellished or mythologized over time and have your reasons to support it and etc,
If you were to die soon (God forbid!) and say you actually came face to face with Jesus Christ sitting on His white throne in all His indescribable glory, with all curtains removed and seeing Him as God. And then realizing that you have interpreted all your scholarly work and reality itself incorrectly and have been partially if not entirely disillusioned or mistaken about your critique on Christianity,
i want you to actually picture this with all you imaginative mind with creativity and in an utmost realistic sense,
what would you say and do? can you please tell me your reactions, as this scenario can very well one day be real. I hope you are open minded enough in your agnosticism and skepticism to the possible reality of such case.

I'll take a stab at this one, at the risk of beating a dead thread. If faced with such a situation, and the revelation that every bit of Judeo-Christian mythology is true at the expense of all reason, intution, knowlege and wisdom, I would bow politely and then accept my eternal torment, secure in the knowlege that I do so with my conscience clear. For this to occur, then it is logical to assume that the twisted tangle of tautology and cosmology inherent in Christian doctrine has presented us with life as a no-win, pointless endeavor as just and fair as a rigged carnival game. A diety who would condemn his creations to such pointless torment is not worthy of my respect, much less my worship. Luckily, I don't think this is likely in the slightest.

im not trying to produce any sense of fear in you, nor to make you laugh, but get you to reconsider your position or redo your homework.
since I'm assuming you do not actually believe you have deciphered Christianity and found hard evidence to dethrone Christian absolutism in any form for the most open, unbiased and bright minded Christian to accept, since there are many Christians including myself who are in a position with a sound mind to recognize truth and conform to it.
Therefore, I'm also assuming that you are also open to the possibility of being wrong, And realize that you're life could cease here before you reach an inevitable and indisputable case against the Christian faith, and thus not having died as one who found truth and let the rest die in disillusionment , but one who lived determined to find every bit of rational rhetoric in his mind who also held to a "priori" and not willing to give it up, even in light of the evidence, (excuse my presumptuous claims)
if i may also throw this in here as well,
i don't agree with some of your understanding of the psychology that is involved in a debate or duologue between two participant of opposing worldviews. For i recognized through your responses that you hold a high profile confidence in your understanding of the emotion and intention that is involved in your opponents , which some appear to me to be mere speculation/biased assumptions if not at the least paranoia.
can you please elaborate where you gained such "knowledge" according to your definition of the term "For an assertion to be knowledge, it must be true, it must be justified"


thanks

Let me lay it out for you: Christianity and the other Radical Monotheistic faiths are all closed-canon text-based religions rooted in "history"; Bibilical history, being inherently self-referential and "tainted" with religion, was a perfectly adequate haigography and mythology for a particular culture at a particular geographical region during a particular time. But despite it's intemperate mixture with Classical Pagan philosophy and dramatic reinterpreations over time, there has been little to validate the Radical Monotheisms (any of them) as inherently superior to any other religion. When faced with the morass of conflicting interpretations of sacred texts and competing sects, errors, ommissions, mistranslations and attempts to interpret passages without adequate knowlege of contemporary cultural context (among many, many other issues), most Neo-Pagans have rejected what passes for spiritual truths locked away within the matrix of cultural prejudices of the Torah and its sequels in favor of seeking direct experience with the divinity.

The legalism and absoluteism implicit in the Radical Monotheisms has bound our society and our world into a particular path -- not everyone is happy with that fact, and the Big Three are seen as being worthy of blame on this front. Culturally, they've given Humanity some short-term advantages --near universal literacy being one -- but at a very great cost to our society and culture as a whole. When faced with the mess that Christianity, in particular, has made of our world, we can understand why some of the believers adamantly want to bring about the End of Days and enjoy whatever beatific afterlife they've been promised in return for their servitude and obedience -- however, we're more concerned about fixing the mess and living our lives in accordance with Wisdom than any pearly afterlife.

I can elaborate, if needed, but that's my summation of the issue.

Arion the Blue
High Druid of Durham

[heat_seeker]

to tmancour

I'll take a stab at this one, at the risk of beating a dead thread. If faced with such a situation, and the revelation that every bit of Judeo-Christian mythology is true at the expense of all reason, intution, knowlege and wisdom, I would bow politely and then accept my eternal torment, secure in the knowlege that I do so with my conscience clear. For this to occur, then it is logical to assume that the twisted tangle of tautology and cosmology inherent in Christian doctrine has presented us with life as a no-win, pointless endeavor as just and fair as a rigged carnival game. A diety who would condemn his creations to such pointless torment is not worthy of my respect, much less my worship. Luckily, I don't think this is likely in the slightest.

this ye old thread is now rekindled for a short time, luckily I drove back here for a quick check up.....

in response, you seem very confident in your assertion, i would reconsider the God of whom I'm speaking of, not one of your own making, but a perfect eternal holy being who is maker off all things revealed in the person of Jesus Christ and in His creation. You appear to appeal to your own moral standard as the basis for your justification before a holy and just God as if you have done nothing wrong in defiance of God and His truth and laws, but His word reveals that He possesses a perfect standard of what it means to be good of which we all fall short of. I think when you stand before Him you will see yourself as you really are in the light of His perfect goodness and find yourself with a guilty conscience by comparison of your moral short comings and His goodness. I do not think you will be very polite then, but with remorse and terror.
second, A God who out of His love partaking in human suffering and taking on human flesh to die on the cross for us and pay the penalty of our sins would not be one who would make a pointless judgment out of His perfect just nature on those who wished to reject Him. Although He has given us abundant reason to receive Him just as a good father gives his muddy, rebellious, hurt and lost child a good reason to come to him to be cleansed, disciplined, healed and be with him at home with endless blessing and joy. I don't know who in the right mind wants to reject that offer.
Believe me my friend, you do not know what you are saying, you have a misperception of God,
your collections of feeling, notion and knowledge of God does not come from His revealed word nor by His eternal Spirit but from some sort of disorientation in the faculty of you being or simple surface observations.
Third, Christianity is not mind boggling to the extent of rejecting it, what is so hard about accepting and believing in the Saviour of the world who came and demonstrated the greatest act of love, justice and righteousness all converged on the cross?, what is so problematic in believing that He has risen from the dead after He died and that He is the true God? In a world of darkness and evil there are many lights of different colors shining for men who seek salvation, why is it so hard to recognize the true bright shining light that came into the world which no man can miss, even Christ Jesus?, when the sun comes up, the stars and the moon fade away, it is the only light men will look at, how can anyone miss that.......... even the blind will feel the warmth of the sun and be comforted, they will know a light bulb from the sun.

But as it is, this is really the case with humanity and its tendency to reject Christ, "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."


Let me lay it out for you: Christianity and the other Radical Monotheistic faiths are all closed-canon text-based religions rooted in "history"; Bibilical history, being inherently self-referential and "tainted" with religion, was a perfectly adequate hagiography and mythology for a particular culture at a particular geographical region during a particular time. But despite it's intemperate mixture with Classical Pagan philosophy and dramatic reinterpreations over time, there has been little to validate the Radical Monotheisms (any of them) as inherently superior to any other religion. When faced with the morass of conflicting interpretations of sacred texts and competing sects, errors, ommissions, mistranslations and attempts to interpret passages without adequate knowlege of contemporary cultural context (among many, many other issues), most Neo-Pagans have rejected what passes for spiritual truths locked away within the matrix of cultural prejudices of the Torah and its sequels in favor of seeking direct experience with the divinity.


im defending Judeo Christianity in particular, Islam as being the "third" monotheistic religion is simply an off shoot of Judeo Christianity and a distortion of it too, i'll stick to the roots.
second, you might want to substantiate your claims above becasue they are mere theories and speculations very similar to what the Jesus seminar advocates, muslims and the zeitgeist movement members hold, you can rest assured that such erronous speculations have been refuted by many Scholars, one of them being the unprofessional and embarrasing work of dan brown's book the da vinci code.. The truth of the matter is that the bible holds timeless truths relevant for all generations, even for the most sophisticated person. The bible exposes the sinful conditions of humanity and its need for a savior, we can see that humanity is de evolving and history repeating itself, man is still corrupt. The bible also reveals God and His universal call for mankind to repent and turn to Him for salvation through His son and many more timeless truths applicable for all people for all times.
Also, I do not regard Christianity as just another religion caught in the web of multiple other worldviews including Neo-Pagans , but a life transforming reality, solely on the basis that Christ has risen and forever lives and will return again as ruler and King to reclaim His world.....blind faith you say, no not at all, perfectly rational. If you are willing to look at all the signposts pointing towards the Living God of the bible, start with creation and science, the bible, then an accurate study of history, then archeology, the conscience and finally there is also the immediate experience one can have in knowing Christ Jesus by praying to Him and genuinely asking Him to reveal Himself, just ask the millions who have a personal living relatioship with Him, how about you start with me.


The legalism and absoluteism implicit in the Radical Monotheisms has bound our society and our world into a particular path -- not everyone is happy with that fact, and the Big Three are seen as being worthy of blame on this front. Culturally, they've given Humanity some short-term advantages --near universal literacy being one -- but at a very great cost to our society and culture as a whole. When faced with the mess that Christianity, in particular, has made of our world, we can understand why some of the believers adamantly want to bring about the End of Days and enjoy whatever beatific afterlife they've been promised in return for their servitude and obedience -- however, we're more concerned about fixing the mess and living our lives in accordance with Wisdom than any pearly afterlife.



let's see, if you want to follow this line of thinking we can look at the not so distant past at the not so religious causes of devastations in the world as we know it , when the greatest acts of crimes, genocide, injustice and world rape was done at the hands of nihilistic, atheistic, Marxist and evolutionary men who killed millions of innocent people all in a short time in a just a couple of decades ago, such as hitler, stalin, mao, Pol Pot, and many more just to mention a few. add up all the crimes done in the name of Christianity which by the way occurred long ago and lie in ancient ruins of a forgotten past, and compare it with the recent crimes done by the men mentioned above and it is like a grain of sand in a seashore. to the contrary, Christianity is the reason and inspiration for much
good in the world, we can see that in many european and westerns cultures and how they have been positivley affected by judeo Chrsistian principals, such as compassion, charity and donation organizations, welfare organizations, human equality, emphasis on justice, and many more blessings. even our institutions have been highly blessed by Christianity, it all started with Christian missionaries throughout history who planted churches, the first hospital by the way and the first university, Christians where the first ones to go into the world with compassion and sacraficial love to reached out to a dying world where there was no love and truth and hope, and as a result we can see the fruit of their labor and their affect on so many nations today who have unfortunatly forgotten their foundation and roots of their blessing. secular humanitarian ethical principals come at the heels of Judeo Christianity as well. We also have many bright minded Christian individuals who have contributed greatly to making the world a better place throughout the ages, who stood up against injustice, spreading the good news about salvation to a fallen humanity in love and truth at the cost of losing their own lives, who tried to refine and improve institutional systems in politics and universities and much much more. Let's take mother Teresa for example, Hellen Keller, Martin Luther, George Muller, Florence Nightingale, William Wilberforce, c.s lewis and his great mind etc, I can go on and on. Please don't look at things one sided through a narrow lens, and please try not to include Christianity into the war conflict between Jews and muslims, because it is absolutely irrelevant. And a note of reminder, the main reason jews and muslims are fighting is because of land today and not religion, and terrorism is done at the hands of extreme muslim fundamentalists and not Christians. And remember religion is not the cause of the evil and problem in the world today, because they are occurring everywhere in both religious related organizations and non related religious organizations, my friend the problem lies in every individual, even the most sophisticated, rational, enlighten and rich ones, including me and you, we are the problem so don't hit religion over the head as being at fault for every evil in the world, as if it's a milestone pulling the world back from evolving and advancing, some of the greatest men are Christian. and please try not to look at the big "threes" as if they are interconnected and the same in nature and goal, you need to do your research and study about the origin and development of these "big three" .

anyways my friend, look back at history, not much has change with humanity, there's still injustice, evil, sickness, famine, war, stupidity, moral decay etc everywhere, even in the most "civilized nation" such as usa, with the the best political system, scientifically and technologically advanced, education for everyone, job opportunities, good health system and yet evil is lurking in the mind and heart of all and it's destroying out nation. let's be open minded and realistic. This conflict will continue to occure until Christ returns as King and establishes His reign on earth, it's the only way everything will be made right and it will happen, and it's the good news we are preaching. This is not stupidity but reality, it's trying to tell the world and awaken their conscience that we cannot take the world's problems into our own hands and resolve every issue without God, the floodgates of death, evil and sickness cannot be prevented my sheer manpower or force, science, being smarter nor religion. In order for the world to change and be a better place, each of us must be changed from within first, and that is what the Lord God offers to each of us through faith in Christ Jesus, that is where the reconstruction and construction must begin, and no human hands is bale to take up such task.


however, we're more concerned about fixing the mess and living our lives in accordance with Wisdom than any pearly afterlife



then what's the point of living, what are you gaining in being "concerned about fixing the mess", when we are all still going to die, evil will continue to exist, and the earth is being destroyed, we are on a path of no return, so in your wisdom, what do you offer to reverse all this, some hope in the life beyond death which Christ offers and thus have a real motivation and reason to do good and fix up messes, and some try to create a man made utopia here and now , and no one has lived to see the day. many have tried, through imposing morality, legislating better rules and laws, making war, using scientific methods, offering better philosophies, kings have come and gone, nations rose and fell, men have conquered and have been conquered, spiritualists offered hopeless paths, eastern gurus offer enlightenment, etc, it's all been tried and all fails, I look at Sodom and Gomorrah and don't see much of a difference between them and many nations today and the way how people live, i look a the glory of rome and their sophisticated political systems and philosophies and they are no more, i look at the great Egyptian civilization with their genius in the architectures and sciences, and they are no more, I look at the great Persian empire and their genius that brought about much of what we know about politics, sciences, fashion and mathematics, and they are no more,
not much has changed you see, only the appearance of things, in essence and nature humans are the same, we are not evolving or advancing to a higher, better, beings with prolonged lives and better abilities immune to death, sin and disease, we are going the other way around. So much for naturalists who say we have evolved from monkeys and apes to intelligent men, if you are wise you will rather see we are degrading and becoming like apes. When man is not anchored to His creator both in mind, heart and soul, all chains and strands of truth, meaning and purpose dissolves into relativism and absolutes becomes a mere illusion, thus we each become our own little god defining and shaping our own reality and morality, I tell you, man has bought into the great lie of that great mastermind deceiver and father of lies, the ancient serpent and embodiment of evil, lucifer, that great lie told to adam and eve in the garden of eden, "and ye shall be like gods". The moment man became separated from God because of his sin and became autonomous and independent of his creator, evil of all sorts followed, even up until today as we can see.
All went wrong the moment we thought that we can do better without God, the root of independence from the Lord is pride, it is what we have taken and adopted from satan himself, by it we slander the great name by which we must be saved, even the Lord Jesus the savior of the world, and by that same pride, the mother of all sins, we reject God by any means and abhor truth and resist the light that came into the world.
The world is not doing so well is it?, the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God, but the foolishness of God is greater that all the wisdom of mankind put together. That foolishness as many regard is that God came into the world and died in our place on the cross to pay the price and penalty of the eternal consequence of our sins, so that we can reconcile and have fellowship with God and return to Him into a restored relationship for eternity, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." Indeed this is true wisdom if you only understood it, if you only are willing to see you depravity and vileness before a perfect and good God then you would cry out and see your need for a savior.
Christ came the first time into the world to atone for sins and conquer the hearts of men and rebuilt the ruins within, the second time He will entirely rule over all, from the whole spiritual and physical realms to the hearts of His people, His kingship and rule will be one without end. This is the blessed hope which we are guaranteed by Him who speaks truth, then finally He will accomplish what no man could or can, create eternal peace and harmony between all, and bring every diversity into unity with joy unimaginable into submission to Himself, the perfect King, who is not the makeup or the figment of the imagination of the wishful man, but the creator of the heavens and the earth.

My friend you really have two options, either you voluntarily by the grace given you that you bow down and worship Jesus the Christ starting here in this lifetime, or you will bow down upon His return because your knee caps will break by Him who will rule the nations by a rod of iron, as it has been said in truth in the eternal word of God, "every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord",
I don't mean to cause offense, but this is a reality for all.

My friend time is fleeing and hell is moving, and the just holy wrath of God is coming into the world to judge both the living and the dead, repent and come to the Lord for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will have eternal life and joy unspeakable in Christ who loves us and gave Himself up for us, there is no greater love and mercy shown to man, come to Him and believe in Him, He promised in His word saying that "whoever comes to me I will never drive away." while the Lord is being patient with all and making his calling clear, come to Him and you will not be disappointed. Remember that every good wholesome joy and blessing you taste, even the fact that you and I are having an intelligent dialogue is a blessing from God, He has given our mental abilities to reason, think, and to know in order to see how good He is and give Him praise, not to use what He has given us to resist Him and fight against His truth. It would be unwise to do such a thing for we will find ourselves put to shame in the end when we stand before Him.
Everything good, pure, beautiful, loving, amazing, great, awesome and majestic is a reflection of His being and nature and all flows from Him by his grace. Look at the universe and all good that is in it, and you will find signposts pointing towards Him everywhere, all the way from the entire galaxies down to a single atom, his fingerprints are everywhere. Follow them and you will find Him, therefore we are all without excuse to deny His existence, reject His calling and truth having been so clearly manifested to us coherently.

I know that I didn't give a concise response to your post, it is however my nature to give a detailed response in anticipation to what will be said later and to aviod misunderstanding and conflicts.

If you wish we can have a friendly debate about a certain subject within my profession and stick to it,
but since i'm not trained unfortunately enough with certain subjects that are not within my field of expertise to give a scholarly response and defense for the Christian faith, i can refer you to some scholars and experts who are able to articulate professionally in giving reasons, answers and evidence for the claims Of the Christian worldview, whether it's about the bible, God, the resurrection Of Jesus Christ, and much more all in relation to these areas of study all from a scientific and historical point of view.
So whatever doubts, uncertainties, questions or suspicions and what not that you may have let me know and I can try and find you the source.

Here are some suggestions to start with

william lane craige (www.reasonablefaith.org)
Matt Slick : (carm.org)
Dr James white: (www.aomin.org)
Professor Joh Lennox (johnlennox.org)
www.apologeticspress.org (many scholars who run the site)
answersingenesis.org (committed to explain and defend the biblical creation account and
many more)
Glenn M. Miller (www.christian-thinktank.com)
Dr. Norman Geisler (www.normangeisler.net)


wish you all the best, take care amigo

[tmancour]

]

this ye old thread is now rekindled for a short time, luckily I drove back here for a quick check up.....

in response, you seem very confident in your assertion, i would reconsider the God of whom I'm speaking of, not one of your own making, but a perfect eternal holy being who is maker off all things revealed in the person of Jesus Christ and in His creation. You appear to appeal to your own moral standard as the basis for your justification before a holy and just God as if you have done nothing wrong in defiance of God and His truth and laws, but His word reveals that He possesses a perfect standard of what it means to be good of which we all fall short of. I think when you stand before Him you will see yourself as you really are in the light of His perfect goodness and find yourself with a guilty conscience by comparison of your moral short comings and His goodness. I do not think you will be very polite then, but with remorse and terror.

Let me stop you right there. Any deity that sought to motivate me through remorse and terror is, in my estimation, unworthy of my worship. Terror at what? Remorse about what? Because I couldn't live up to the impossible perfection before me? What being could? But continue . . .

]
second, A God who out of His love partaking in human suffering and taking on human flesh to die on the cross for us and pay the penalty of our sins would not be one who would make a pointless judgment out of His perfect just nature on those who wished to reject Him.

Yet a being of such perfection would undoubtedly view human suffering and the frailties of human flesh to be minor, inconsequential issues compared to the scope of his pervue. And from that perspective such issues as death and life have, simply, no meaning -- there could only be existence and non-existence. So his theoretical incarnation, an effort by an allegedly OMNISCIENT being to understand the perspective of a vastly inferior being, would be as trivial an indulgence as a human being playing a video game as a demonstration of how he/she therefore "understood" what the video game characters felt. At the end of the game, we don't disappear in a cloud of logic and electrons, and no matter how deeply immersed into the game we feel, that understanding never leaves us. There's no way that an omniscient deity could "play" the game of life without knowing at a fundamental level that there was no real risk and that every bit of suffering was transitory and trivial in comparison. Beyond that, under this construction Jehovah wrote the game, developed the game, and is responsible for all of the rules and restrictions put in place for the "players" (us) -- which therefore makes him ultimately responsible for not just the in-game play (life) but the ultimate disposition of the game as a whole. Which means that, since Jehovah set up the "game", including the decision to judge and dispose of the players according to whatever arbitrary standards he's set, we, as players, can only be held responsible for our actions within the context of the "game". If he then gifted me with reason, insight, and an inherent understanding of basic morality and the illusion of free will and then condemns me for following the said reason, insight, understanding according to that "free will", then he has put me in a no-win position -- the "game" is inherently rigged. And according to that inherent understanding of basic morality, any deity who would rig the outcome of the "game" and seek to punish those who violated the murky and ultimately unknowable rules without a reason is a capricious, abusive, and unjust deity, no matter how much he says he loves us. Continue . . .

]

Although He has given us abundant reason to receive Him just as a good father gives his muddy, rebellious, hurt and lost child a good reason to come to him to be cleansed, disciplined, healed and be with him at home with endless blessing and joy. I don't know who in the right mind wants to reject that offer.

I'm in my right mind, and as a parent I know full well that there comes a point when you have to allow your children to rise or fall on their own accord. I've got three kids, all of whom are muddy, rebellious, and have been hurt or lost at some point. As painful as it is to me, I know that a certain amount of suffering must be done on the part of my children because that's the only way that they will learn to be complete, competent adults. As a good parent, I certainly don't instruct them along a single unwavering path and then condemn them to an eternity of ceaseless torment if they fail. That would be pointless, cruel, and belie any love I've professed for them. Personally, if Jehovah is seen in a parental light, then I'd have to say that he's the worst sort of abusive parent, and under Christianity's mythos there isn't any kind of mystical Social Services that can intercede on behalf of the child against the abuser. Since staying in an abusive relationship is unwise, and I prise Wisdom over Faith that Jehovah will ever clean up his act, I'll be happy to reject that. I will heal from my wounds on my own, and I have built a life of blessings and joy already. For him to come along and tempt me away from my works with some mystical override switch that casts every aspect of my life into failure, that's a kind of abuse that I cannot, in good conscience, permit myself to endure.

]
Believe me my friend, you do not know what you are saying, you have a misperception of God,
your collections of feeling, notion and knowledge of God does not come from His revealed word nor by His eternal Spirit but from some sort of disorientation in the faculty of you being or simple surface observations.

I do know what I'm saying. I've spent the majority of my life dealing with this issue, and when it comes to my perception of deity through his alleged "revealed word" (whichever "revealed word" you're talking about) or Jehovah's "eternal spirit" (which, from my discussions and explorations of mysticism across religions and pantheons, seems pretty much like the same "eternal spirit" every other religion feels as the cornerstone of its mystical practice) Jehovah just doesn't measure up to my standards. Period. The idea that I must not know what I'm talking about because I don't agree with you is contentious -- as far as I know, I have a much, much better idea of what is best for me and what my values and principals are than anyone else. I drank your Kool Aide once upon a time, and it didn't agree with me no matter how much I drank. Forty years later it still tastes watered down and unfulfilling, no matter how many commercials I see for it. Assuming that I did something wrong because I reached a different conclusion than you when presented with the same evidence is a faulty inference.

]
Third, Christianity is not mind boggling to the extent of rejecting it, what is so hard about accepting and believing in the Saviour of the world who came and demonstrated the greatest act of love, justice and righteousness all converged on the cross?,

You mean, the "savior" who came to save us from the world he created in the first place? The entire Judeo-Christian-Islamic mythology is predicated on a few fundamental pieces of of sandstone: 1. There is only one God 2. God created the entire universe 3. we only live one lifetime and we will be judged in the afterlife based on our actions and beliefs of that lifetime 4. if we do not measure up to whatever arbitrary standard (usually pulled from the cultures of semi-nomadic desert-dwelling barbarians) then we are condemned to an eternity of torment for no other reason than to inflict pain and suffering on us. Oh, and 5. that some text, somewhere, is the "real" rulebook, and all others are false. If you reject ANY of these principals as the foundation of your cosmology, Radical Monotheism falls apart. Since I don't see any real evidence for the veracity of any of them, then it's quite easy to reject the idea that I need to be saved . . . from the deity who, according the above precepts, set up the game in the first place.

]
what is so problematic in believing that He has risen from the dead after He died and that He is the true God?

Lots of people have risen from the dead. That doesn't make them all the True God. Since I don't accept the above-referenced axioms, rising from the dead is a parlor trick, a stroke of luck, or a bit of sophisticated pharmocology -- not proof-positive that the corpse in question is inherently divine.

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In a world of darkness and evil there are many lights of different colors shining for men who seek salvation, why is it so hard to recognize the true bright shining light that came into the world which no man can miss, even Christ Jesus?

Because I don't see our world as being a place of darkness and evil, and reject any philosophy that would use that as a starting point. While I agree that there is darkness and evil within the world, there's also good and light. In all cultures. In all families. In all people. Even in people who don't pray to Jesus. I don't recognize the "true" bright shining light of Jesus because I see how tainted that light truly is. And while I could castigate you for your blindness to the taint, just as you castigate me for not seeing this supposedly "obvious" truth, I know that you, like me, have your own path to walk. It would be arrogant of me to try to point out the taint if you can't see it for yourself. No doubt you have an important lesson planned around that, and it wouldn't be right for me to interfere that way.

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, when the sun comes up, the stars and the moon fade away, it is the only light men will look at, how can anyone miss that.......... even the blind will feel the warmth of the sun and be comforted, they will know a light bulb from the sun.

Then how come so many people have been so horribly burned by this supposedly universally warm light? How many lives has Christianity destroyed over the years? If it was as truly benign as you claim, then there would not, indeed, be any argument. But the proof is in the pudding, and the track record of the Radical Monotheisms is strewn with the broken and crippled lives of those it has blindly torched over the centuries. The Sun can exist in the sky with the moon and the morning stars, and all are equally beautiful -- I would not spite the moon to glorify the sun, or reject the stars in favor of the moon. Then again I'm fairly sophisticated in my spirituality, and I suppose some people can't handle more than one light source at a time.

]

But as it is, this is really the case with humanity and its tendency to reject Christ, "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

Yeah, you can also put me down as rejecting the inherent dualism that Christianity adopted from the Persians. I don't see the world in light/dark, good/evil, black/white terms because it very rarely turns out to be that way when you look closely and intently enough. And I've also noticed that people who try to put everything in dualistic terms are usually trying to radicalize the discussion in their favor. That puts me inherently at odds with the RadMon philosophy and makes me suspicious of every preacher selling their bill of goods. Credit humanity with a better sense of judgement than that -- "You're either for us or against us" is a lousy way to run a world. As far as my deeds go, my life is open to scrutiny -- it isn't that I fear judgement, it's that I despise the judgmental. Legalistic religions have been a chain around the neck of humanity for over a thousand years, now, and I don't see much benefit in continuing the practice out of fear.

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im defending Judeo Christianity in particular, Islam as being the "third" monotheistic religion is simply an off shoot of Judeo Christianity and a distortion of it too, i'll stick to the roots.

Hmmm. My Jewish friends feel the same way about your faith. I don't see more than a dime's bit of difference between all three, myself, considering they all adhere to the same above-reference axioms. But continue . . .

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second, you might want to substantiate your claims above becasue they are mere theories and speculations very similar to what the Jesus seminar advocates, muslims and the zeitgeist movement members hold, you can rest assured that such erronous speculations have been refuted by many Scholars, one of them being the unprofessional and embarrasing work of dan brown's book the da vinci code.. The truth of the matter is that the bible holds timeless truths relevant for all generations, even for the most sophisticated person.

What do you need substantiated? The fact that there are plenty of different versions of the bible floating around, many contradictory or at odds with each other? That all of them came from one relatively small geographical and cultural region, with its own inherent prejudices and petty quibbles with their neighbors? The fact that regardless of which book a particular sect holds up as "THE" legitimate version, it's invariably a closed canon without potential for addition? None of these things are unsubstantiated, even by the most careless biblical "scholar". Indeed, citing sloppy scholarship as a mitigating factor doesn't, in the least, detract from my argument. And while the bible, perhaps, does hold "timeless truths for all generations, even for the most sophisticated person" it hardly has a monopoly on that claim. The same thing could be said of the Tao Te Ching or any number of other texts.

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The bible exposes the sinful conditions of humanity and its need for a savior, we can see that humanity is de evolving and history repeating itself, man is still corrupt. The bible also reveals God and His universal call for mankind to repent and turn to Him for salvation through His son and many more timeless truths applicable for all people for all times.

Only if you believe the above-reference axioms. I reject the concept of sin as much as I reject the concept of Radical Monotheism, one-shot cosmology, or any of the other ideological issues Christianity proclaims. I don't think that humanity needed a savior, and I don't think we need one now. I don't see man as corrupt -- perhaps imperfect, but that's our nature. I don't see that as a failing. Indeed, it is striving to overcome our challenges that we rise to our greatest heights. The "revelation" of Jehovah in the bible isn't particularly resonating to me (the Hindu texts have a much more profound and alluring introduction to the mystical concepts) and I don't see any real reason to hock my soul for these "timeless truths" when I can't agree with the foundations of the arguments that called them forth to begin with. But continue . . .

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Also, I do not regard Christianity as just another religion caught in the web of multiple other worldviews including Neo-Pagans , but a life transforming reality, solely on the basis that Christ has risen and forever lives and will return again as ruler and King to reclaim His world.....blind faith you say, no not at all, perfectly rational. If you are willing to look at all the signposts pointing towards the Living God of the bible, start with creation and science, the bible, then an accurate study of history, then archeology, the conscience and finally there is also the immediate experience one can have in knowing Christ Jesus by praying to Him and genuinely asking Him to reveal Himself, just ask the millions who have a personal living relatioship with Him, how about you start with me.

So . . . you are calling on me to study science to prove the legitimacy of the Bible. Okay, I'll bite -- I married an adept scientist, and have a passion for science myself. In addition I've studied religion -- not just one small sect, but the entire process and complex relationship of human religion, based on anthropology, archeology, philiology, phenomenonolgy, etc. Nothing I have studied in secular science has lent the slightest bit of "proof" that the bible was in any way the unerring Word of God -- indeed, quite the opposite.

But then you go on and say that after studying science I should rely on my conscience (which I already have maintained has told me that Christianity is a crock, at least as far as my conscience is concerned) and direct experience (which has proven the validity and veracity of my Goddess far more than it has elevated Jehovah). Oh, I gave Jesus years to manifest himself in my life, as ardently, sincerely, and devoutly as anyone ever has. Didn't happen. Not going to happen. So by both objective "proof" and subjective experience, Jesus lost, the Goddess won.

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let's see, if you want to follow this line of thinking we can look at the not so distant past at the not so religious causes of devastations in the world as we know it , when the greatest acts of crimes, genocide, injustice and world rape was done at the hands of nihilistic, atheistic, Marxist and evolutionary men who killed millions of innocent people all in a short time in a just a couple of decades ago, such as hitler, stalin, mao, Pol Pot, and many more just to mention a few. add up all the crimes done in the name of Christianity which by the way occurred long ago and lie in ancient ruins of a forgotten past, and compare it with the recent crimes done by the men mentioned above and it is like a grain of sand in a seashore.

The facts contradict this claim. Especially if you add in cultural imperialism and genocide to the list. The few marxist you mention pale in comparison to the wholesale slaughter of, say, Native Americans by Christian missionaries, Africans caught in the slave-trade by professed Christians, the horrible deprications against fellow Christians wrought by Christians -- and as far as "recent events" go, I'd say unleashing the power of atomic weaponry rates pretty high up there -- done by Christians against "heathens". The crimes of Christianity continue to this day and resonate across the ages. "Grains of sand in a seashore"? Ask the millions of Jews put to death by good Christians, the millions of Indians slaughtered, starved, and plauged by Chrisitians, the entire foundations of the worst wars in history, etc. etc. Sorry, you don't get that one.

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to the contrary, Christianity is the reason and inspiration for much good in the world, we can see that in many european and westerns cultures and how they have been positivley affected by judeo Chrsistian principals, such as compassion, charity and donation organizations, welfare organizations, human equality, emphasis on justice, and many more blessings. even our institutions have been highly blessed by Christianity, it all started with Christian missionaries throughout history who planted churches, the first hospital by the way and the first university, Christians where the first ones to go into the world with compassion and sacraficial love to reached out to a dying world where there was no love and truth and hope, and as a result we can see the fruit of their labor and their affect on so many nations today who have unfortunatly forgotten their foundation and roots of their blessing. secular humanitarian ethical principals come at the heels of Judeo Christianity as well. We also have many bright minded Christian individuals who have contributed greatly to making the world a better place throughout the ages, who stood up against injustice, spreading the good news about salvation to a fallen humanity in love and truth at the cost of losing their own lives, who tried to refine and improve institutional systems in politics and universities and much much more. Let's take mother Teresa for example, Hellen Keller, Martin Luther, George Muller, Florence Nightingale, William Wilberforce, c.s lewis and his great mind etc, I can go on and on.

Oh, you don't get to claim the "good" Christians and reject the "bad" Christians -- that isn't fair. For every Hellen Keller there's a Columbus. For every Martin Luther (who fomented two generations of bitter religious wars, including the terrible 30 Years War) there's a Hitler. For every Florence Nightingale there's a Torquemada. And the "compassionate" ideals you champion were built across the dead bodies and devastated cultures of a thousand different lands. How many tribes did Christianity destroy in order to save the souls of the tribesmen? How many nations were brought down and peaceful peasants slaughtered to advance the Christian ideal? Certainly, there have been individual orthopraxic Christians I respect, but as an institution and a religion, Christianity and Islam have been responsible for more death and suffering than any other religion. Buddhism, on the other hand, has produced far more peaceful cultures, and far more compassionate societies than all the Big Three combined. Sorry, you don't get this one, either.

]

Please don't look at things one sided through a narrow lens, and please try not to include Christianity into the war conflict between Jews and muslims, because it is absolutely irrelevant.

Actually, it's completely relevant: not only did the Christian nations of Western Europe and America authorize the establishment of Israel through the auspices of the UN, they also created the Holocaust that drove the European Jewry to pursue Zionism seriously. Then they took sides in the conflict and ensured that one side prospered while the other side suffered. If anyone is looking at this in a narrow frame, it's your argument -- I'm looking at things in a much broader historical and cultural context, and in that frame Christianity is found wanting. But I digress . . .
END OF PART ONE

[tmancour]

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And a note of reminder, the main reason jews and muslims are fighting is because of land today and not religion, and terrorism is done at the hands of extreme muslim fundamentalists and not Christians. And remember religion is not the cause of the evil and problem in the world today, because they are occurring everywhere in both religious related organizations and non related religious organizations, my friend the problem lies in every individual, even the most sophisticated, rational, enlighten and rich ones, including me and you, we are the problem so don't hit religion over the head as being at fault for every evil in the world, as if it's a milestone pulling the world back from evolving and advancing, some of the greatest men are Christian. and please try not to look at the big "threes" as if they are interconnected and the same in nature and goal, you need to do your research and study about the origin and development of these "big three" .

I've studied them exhaustively, academically and on my own. I stand firmly by my convictions, because they are based upon the facts of the case. I don't blame religion indiscriminately -- I blame the Radical Monotheisms that seek to convert the entire world to their point of view at the point of a sword, or use their institutional and financial dominance to subvert "alien" cultures to their liking for the Glory of God. Because the fact is that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all branches of the same tree, and Islam and Christianity further seek to convert and proselytize, contending that any means is permissible if the end is the Glory of God. Buddhism and Hinduism have never pursued that goal, only Islam and Christianity. And while some of the greatest men in the world have been Christian -- or Islamic, or Jewish -- I contend that their greatness comes from themselves, not their religion, else there would be no argument as to the superiority of any particular religion.

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anyways my friend, look back at history, not much has change with humanity, there's still injustice, evil, sickness, famine, war, stupidity, moral decay etc everywhere, even in the most "civilized nation" such as usa, with the the best political system, scientifically and technologically advanced, education for everyone, job opportunities, good health system and yet evil is lurking in the mind and heart of all and it's destroying out nation. let's be open minded and realistic.

Yes, let's. Christianity has had, arguably, 1000 years to prove its superiority to other beliefs based on the strength of those beliefs, yet continuously the Christians in question have resorted instead to every devious and evil trick, force, etc. to advance their goals. To be truly open-minded one must ask oneself why a religion professing compassion and love must always return to violence, force, and suffering to advance it's arguments. I don't deny the existence of evil in the world, but I have seen little in your faith that pays more than lip-service to the ideals. After 1000 years of near absolute ideological rule, one would think that a superior faith and religion would have eliminated or reduced these evils. Instead we're beset with the environmental depredation on a global scale due to the "use up this world because it doesn't matter" school of thought. We've seen the systematic oppression of women and female sexuality under this meme. We've seen peaceful, stable cultures utterly destroyed by the Cross. We've seen hundreds of thousands of innocent people wiped out in an instance because of choices good Christians have made. Let us, above all, be realistic.

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This conflict will continue to occure until Christ returns as King and establishes His reign on earth, it's the only way everything will be made right and it will happen, and it's the good news we are preaching.

Okay, so much for being realistic . . .

The conflict will continue until Christianity re-invents itself or is replaced by a more inclusive, open-minded and less legalistic structure, which, due to the closed nature of the canon, won't happen without massive bloodshed and suffering (which is the only way accepted re-interpretations in Christianity ever happen). What will your returned King say to me when I respectfully disagree with his rule? With his philosophy? Will he reason and discuss the matter . . . or will he resort to extortion, torture, and persecution, as has been traditionally done? Can King Jesus rule a world wherein those who still worship the Old Gods persist, despite his followers' best efforts to eradicate any kind of competing thought?

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This is not stupidity but reality, it's trying to tell the world and awaken their conscience that we cannot take the world's problems into our own hands and resolve every issue without God, the floodgates of death, evil and sickness cannot be prevented my sheer manpower or force, science, being smarter nor religion. In order for the world to change and be a better place, each of us must be changed from within first, and that is what the Lord God offers to each of us through faith in Christ Jesus, that is where the reconstruction and construction must begin, and no human hands is bale to take up such task.

I did my change. I left Christianity, and my life has been ever-so-much better since. Guilt, shame, sin, fear have all left my religious life, now, allowing me to raise my family in the nurturing embrace of the Goddess untainted by fear and hatred. I've done my part . . .

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then what's the point of living, what are you gaining in being "concerned about fixing the mess", when we are all still going to die, evil will continue to exist, and the earth is being destroyed, we are on a path of no return, so in your wisdom, what do you offer to reverse all this, some hope in the life beyond death which Christ offers and thus have a real motivation and reason to do good and fix up messes, and some try to create a man made utopia here and now , and no one has lived to see the day.

The point of living is to love my wife, raise my kids, and live out a long, peaceful, prosperous existence until my time comes to join my ancestors. The earth is being destroyed by Christian ideals, not Pagan ones, and while I fight to restore it I also fight to ensure my line and their descendants survive and prosper. As far as death is concerned, it's a natural part of life and to seek to thwart death is a perverse and unrealistic prospect in my mind. Evil exists and must be fought, but it will never be triumphed over for we carry it with us wherever we go. And I don't need a utopia -- I just need a world where I can live my life as I see fit without the interference of those who think they know what I need better than I do. Pagans don't believe in utopias. We believe in a life well-lived. That's it. That's all I need, and I am content with that. Why are you not?

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many have tried, through imposing morality, legislating better rules and laws, making war, using scientific methods, offering better philosophies, kings have come and gone, nations rose and fell, men have conquered and have been conquered, spiritualists offered hopeless paths, eastern gurus offer enlightenment, etc,

Most of those who have tried building utopias have been Christians convinced of the unrealistic expectations their sacred books have given them. The Wise don't indulge in such foolishness. Side note: "Eastern gurus" don't "offer enlightenment" -- enlightenment, however you want to paint it, must be achieved and earned by the individual.

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it's all been tried and all fails, I look at Sodom and Gomorrah and don't see much of a difference between them and many nations today and the way how people live, i look a the glory of rome and their sophisticated political systems and philosophies and they are no more, i look at the great Egyptian civilization with their genius in the architectures and sciences, and they are no more, I look at the great Persian empire and their genius that brought about much of what we know about politics, sciences, fashion and mathematics, and they are no more,
not much has changed you see, only the appearance of things, in essence and nature humans are the same, we are not evolving or advancing to a higher, better, beings with prolonged lives and better abilities immune to death, sin and disease, we are going the other way around.

"Things in the past have passed away". Okay, sure, human nature hasn't changed. I get that. That's not a problem for me. I like human nature. Some of my best friends are human.

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So much for naturalists who say we have evolved from monkeys and apes to intelligent men, if you are wise you will rather see we are degrading and becoming like apes.

Which proves you haven't studied anthropology enough to know apes very well. The "naturalists" haven't established we came from apes, a huge body of scientific knowledge has been developed to establish that. And weren't you telling me to look to science for proof of Jehovah's truth and existence? Apes are apes and humans are humans, and we've become less like them over time, not more like them.

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When man is not anchored to His creator both in mind, heart and soul, all chains and strands of truth, meaning and purpose dissolves into relativism and absolutes becomes a mere illusion, thus we each become our own little god defining and shaping our own reality and morality, I tell you, man has bought into the great lie of that great mastermind deceiver and father of lies, the ancient serpent and embodiment of evil, lucifer, that great lie told to adam and eve in the garden of eden, "and ye shall be like gods". The moment man became separated from God because of his sin and became autonomous and independent of his creator, evil of all sorts followed, even up until today as we can see.

This is where you've really shot your credibility. The "great lie" is that the Radical Monotheisms sought to purge the Divine Feminine from religion and thought that they could ascend to some transhuman state by cutting off a leg. When the Big Three rejected the Goddess and tried to build a civilization and culture without Her, they screwed up big time. Absolutism inevitably leads to corruption and persecution, not freedom and prosperity. If there is a great lie here, it is that Jehovah is the only game in town and you play by his rules or burn for all eternity. That way lies tyranny and suffering, not hope and prosperity. Personally, I do shape my own reality and my life has been far, far better for it. Should I give up my happiness out of fear? Should I pawn my hard-won spiritual development for an empty sack of promises? Wisdom dictates the answer.

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All went wrong the moment we thought that we can do better without God, the root of independence from the Lord is pride, it is what we have taken and adopted from satan himself, by it we slander the great name by which we must be saved, even the Lord Jesus the savior of the world, and by that same pride, the mother of all sins, we reject God by any means and abhor truth and resist the light that came into the world.

You've yet to demonstrate the truth of what you say. I contend I don't need to be "saved" from the world, and those who view the universe in that way do a disservice to the rest of us. You've yet to convince me that 1. there is only one deity 2. that Jehovah is the creator of the universe 3. that we deserve to be judged and condemned under your whacky system and 4. the bible is the unerring and complete word of said deity. Indeed, you've made a lot of my points for me.

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The world is not doing so well is it?, the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God, but the foolishness of God is greater that all the wisdom of mankind put together. That foolishness as many regard is that God came into the world and died in our place on the cross to pay the price and penalty of the eternal consequence of our sins, so that we can reconcile and have fellowship with God and return to Him into a restored relationship for eternity, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." Indeed this is true wisdom if you only understood it, if you only are willing to see you depravity and vileness before a perfect and good God then you would cry out and see your need for a savior.

Yeah, this doesn't do it for me, either. Because I don't see the life I've lived as depraved or vile, and I do see that in the lives of many of the Christians I know. Which brings me back to my initial contention: that a deity such as Jehovah is abusive, conceited, unjust, and unworthy of my worship. So too is any deity who seeks to control me with fear and hatred. That's non-negotiable to me . . . and I just can't see Jehovah changing his mind or his methods any time soon. Even if he did, I doubt his followers would listen.

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Christ came the first time into the world to atone for sins and conquer the hearts of men and rebuilt the ruins within, the second time He will entirely rule over all, from the whole spiritual and physical realms to the hearts of His people, His kingship and rule will be one without end. This is the blessed hope which we are guaranteed by Him who speaks truth, then finally He will accomplish what no man could or can, create eternal peace and harmony between all, and bring every diversity into unity with joy unimaginable into submission to Himself, the perfect King, who is not the makeup or the figment of the imagination of the wishful man, but the creator of the heavens and the earth.

At which point we'd cease being men, and I see more value in clinging to my humanity than bargaining it away for the sham of "eternal life" and eternal bliss. I mean, what would be the point of existence? Praising a deity who, clearly, needs the validation? Sorry, my gods aren't so petty. Their goals aren't eternal peace and harmony; they're far more concerned that their children learn and grow and prosper without the taint of hatred and fear.

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My friend you really have two options, either you voluntarily by the grace given you that you bow down and worship Jesus the Christ starting here in this lifetime, or you will bow down upon His return because your knee caps will break by Him who will rule the nations by a rod of iron, as it has been said in truth in the eternal word of God, "every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord",
I don't mean to cause offense, but this is a reality for all.

Gee, that's a happy thought: "Worship me or I'll break your kneecaps!" Sounds more like Sauron than Jesus. If he can't get his validation voluntarily, he'll beat it out of you. Yeah, that's a worthy god to worship. Not.

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My friend time is fleeing and hell is moving, and the just holy wrath of God is coming into the world to judge both the living and the dead, repent and come to the Lord for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will have eternal life and joy unspeakable in Christ who loves us and gave Himself up for us, there is no greater love and mercy shown to man, come to Him and believe in Him, He promised in His word saying that "whoever comes to me I will never drive away." while the Lord is being patient with all and making his calling clear, come to Him and you will not be disappointed.

Yeah, actually, in point of fact I would. I'd be disappointed with my own failure, if I ever bowed to Jehovah or his minions. I'd be disappointed at my weakness. Indeed, it would be so disappointing that I'd happily accept eternal torment rather than be coerced in professing something I didn't believe under the threat of fear and hatred. Time is always fleeing. Christians have been shouting "The End is nigh!" for two millennium, now, and I'm guessing I'll live a long, happy, prosperous life before I'd have to contend with that. A couple of them, at least.

]
Remember that every good wholesome joy and blessing you taste, even the fact that you and I are having an intelligent dialogue is a blessing from God, He has given our mental abilities to reason, think, and to know in order to see how good He is and give Him praise, not to use what He has given us to resist Him and fight against His truth. It would be unwise to do such a thing for we will find ourselves put to shame in the end when we stand before Him.

And you remember that every breath you take and every thought in your head is yours courtesy of the grace of the Goddess, who grew you in your mother's womb and gifted you with a birthright free from unnatural fear and shame and guilt and all those other tools of Jehovah. She doesn't demand anything of you but love, and she doesn't even punish you when you forget. But then again an indulgent mother has always been a better bet than an abusive father, even when the kid in question keeps going back to Dad for more abuse.

]
Everything good, pure, beautiful, loving, amazing, great, awesome and majestic is a reflection of His being and nature and all flows from Him by his grace. Look at the universe and all good that is in it, and you will find signposts pointing towards Him everywhere, all the way from the entire galaxies down to a single atom, his fingerprints are everywhere. Follow them and you will find Him, therefore we are all without excuse to deny His existence, reject His calling and truth having been so clearly manifested to us coherently.

Funny, I don't see that. I see the unyielding grace of the Goddess in the trees (until they are cut down to print more Bibles) the incredible brilliance of Her beauty reflected eternally in Nature, from smallest atomi to greatest Galactic cluster. It is through my meditations and experience of Nature that I came to understand the lie of Jehovah and his minions, and no amount of knee-cap breaking and fearmongering and hatred will take away the truth I learned in my Mother's womb. Sorry, Jehovah, Allah and JC just can't compete with that.

]
I know that I didn't give a concise response to your post, it is however my nature to give a detailed response in anticipation to what will be said later and to aviod misunderstanding and conflicts.

If you wish we can have a friendly debate about a certain subject within my profession and stick to it,
but since i'm not trained unfortunately enough with certain subjects that are not within my field of expertise to give a scholarly response and defense for the Christian faith, i can refer you to some scholars and experts who are able to articulate professionally in giving reasons, answers and evidence for the claims Of the Christian worldview, whether it's about the bible, God, the resurrection Of Jesus Christ, and much more all in relation to these areas of study all from a scientific and historical point of view.
So whatever doubts, uncertainties, questions or suspicions and what not that you may have let me know and I can try and find you the source.

Here are some suggestions to start with

william lane craige (www.reasonablefaith.org)
Matt Slick : (carm.org)
Dr James white: (www.aomin.org)
Professor Joh Lennox (johnlennox.org)
www.apologeticspress.org (many scholars who run the site)
answersingenesis.org (committed to explain and defend the biblical creation account and
many more)
Glenn M. Miller (www.christian-thinktank.com)
Dr. Norman Geisler (www.normangeisler.net)

I've had my fill of Christian apologists, thank you. After 40 years they haven't moved me to capitulate to Jehovah's fear and hate, disguised as love and compassion. All they want to do is quote scripture, which I've had a belly full of, without discussing the realities behind the religion. I'm content with my life and my Goddess and the Old Gods, and I'm content to raise my kids that way while we await the downfall of the Big Three.

]
wish you all the best, take care amigo

May the Goddess bless you and your kin.

Arion the Blue
High Druid of Durham

[37818]

tmancour,

I have no doubt that you are convinced your conclusions are correct.

Consider this, God has provided forgiveness for all. Yet all will not receive it. Your name may yet be in the book of life. Waiting to be removed upon your physical death. The promise is to not have it removed (Revelation 3:5. 1 John 5:4,5, 9-12. Revelation 21:7. John 1:12, 13.) Names are removed for reasons stated (Psalm 69:26, 27, 28. Romans 3:11.)

There is still time, until you die (Hebrews 9:27.)

But let us say all the above I suggested is false. What consequence is it to those who have trusted in the resurrected One? (1 Corinthians 15:18, 19.) And if it is true, then one will be judged according to one's deserved deeds (Revelation 20:11-15. Matthew 12:36, 37.)

Best regards,
37818

[heat_seeker]

to tmancour

Let me stop you right there. Any deity that sought to motivate me through remorse and terror is, in my estimation, unworthy of my worship. Terror at what? Remorse about what? Because I couldn't live up to the impossible perfection before me? What being could? But continue . . .

First God is so worthy of praise honor and worship because of, first who He is and second on the basis of what He did on the cross what no being could, namely propitiate, atone, and justify for us by giving His own life for us in order that we may have the provision for eternal salvation from our sins. I'm sure you are willing to honor a loved one, a family or friend and devote your life to them if they had done something one hundredth honorable as what God did. But strangly when it comes to your creator, He is nor worthy of you and means nothing?, the one who makes your heart beat? all you can do is pick a bone with Him.
God's demand for moral perfection is indeed impossible to attain when our nature is tainted and marred by sin, however, God offers us His righteousness as a gift through His Son, that is why salvation is on the grounds of what Jesus did on the cross in our place to obtain this righteousness for us, so that we can be pardoned and accepted by God by faith in His Son.
Just because you can't see you vileness before God doesn't mean He is not worthy, it is that you are not worthy of Him and deserving of condemnation just as I am, but as it is, He loves and gives grace freely through His son to anyone who comes to Him.
Now you have to tell me why God having done the impossible for us is not worthy of us ill deserving creatures. Terror and regret comes when your eyes open and see you sins and how impossible it is to enter the kingdom of God as you are and stand in His presence, unless you are cleansed by the blood of Christ and are justified of your sins. Man originally was able to enjoy a relationship with God without sin in is nature, until it entered the world, this standard is livable and attainable, but not while we are in our sins, that is why my friend we have a Savior, His name is Jesus the living Christ.

Yes, let's. Christianity has had, arguably, 1000 years to prove its superiority to other beliefs based on the strength of those beliefs, yet continuously the Christians in question have resorted instead to every devious and evil trick, force, etc. to advance their goals. To be truly open-minded one must ask oneself why a religion professing compassion and love must always return to violence, force, and suffering to advance it's arguments. I don't deny the existence of evil in the world, but I have seen little in your faith that pays more than lip-service to the ideals. After 1000 years of near absolute ideological rule, one would think that a superior faith and religion would have eliminated or reduced these evils. Instead we're beset with the environmental depredation on a global scale due to the "use up this world because it doesn't matter" school of thought. We've seen the systematic oppression of women and female sexuality under this meme. We've seen peaceful, stable cultures utterly destroyed by the Cross. We've seen hundreds of thousands of innocent people wiped out in an instance because of choices good Christians have made. Let us, above all, be realistic.

Christians have demonstrated their superiority in terms of, truth, hope, and love, but not by physical force but by word and deed. And those who have done so have by following historical and biblical Christianity who followed the example of Christ Jesus, "to love one another"," to speak in truth", "to preach the good news of salvation" "not hate your enemies, but pray for them", and those who did the opposite, where simply not genuine Christians.
Also, just because individuals, say one as yourself doesn't yield to Christianity doesn't prove that is false or weak, it's simply a volitional or emotional issue not intellectual that prevents one to reject Christianity, not many are WILLING to accept the truth claims of Christianity, that is what is so beautiful about Christianity, it is not spread by the Sword that kills, but by the two edged sword of the word of God in Love and power of Spirit.
Again, if evil were to be dealt with and wiped off the face of this earth, by definition we would have to get eliminated, we are the root of the problem, we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.
The reason why evil still exists today despite the fact that Christianity still stands after two thousand years and breathes and moves doing the work they were given, is because man is unwilling to see the evil in himself and is not willing to be made right before God who can cleanse them. Let me ask you, why hasn't the Love and grace of God changed you yet?. what Jesus did is either the true or false, the greatest act of love and mercy or not, which one is it,
on historical grounds it is true, and God is Love, so why does that bother you?, what exactly are you boxing?, surely it's not historical and biblical Christianity, but perhaps a false one.
And finally, don;t resort to unchristian things that "Christians" did in the past, it is irrelevant. please, also read my previous posts with "silent running" on this blog. And please avoid making blurry blunt assertions about Christians this and Christians that, be specific and let's ALSO always look at the other side, aright...............aright then.


The conflict will continue until Christianity re-invents itself or is replaced by a more inclusive, open-minded and less legalistic structure, which, due to the closed nature of the canon, won't happen without massive bloodshed and suffering (which is the only way accepted re-interpretations in Christianity ever happen). What will your returned King say to me when I respectfully disagree with his rule? With his philosophy? Will he reason and discuss the matter . . . or will he resort to extortion, torture, and persecution, as has been traditionally done? Can King Jesus rule a world wherein those who still worship the Old Gods persist, despite his followers' best efforts to eradicate any kind of competing thought?


to reinvent Christianity will no longer be Christianity, the essential biblical and historical doctrines are set, Jesus conquered the grave and rose from the dead and will return again.
how can one change it without destroying the very foundation of it, truth can't be destroyed my friend, but man can be ignorant if he wishes even until the Lord returns.
Those who will comply with His kingship will do so in joy, love, peace and glory. After all, when I and other Christians (hopefully one day you as well) one day stand before the King of glory what do we have to fear, since He has saved us, and freed us from slavery to sin and it's consequences, when He will completely transform us in and out by then when He resurrects us in a new indestructible glorified body. One in Christ will enjoy Him forever with a conscience free of guilt and will abide by His life giving laws gladly. If i am a slave to sin and hate righteousness because of my sinful nature, then yes, i would be terrified then and be uncomfortable, since i would not be able to conform to His ways nor be able to subject myself to Him, that is why one has to be born again, literally be given spiritual birth and be given a new nature. I also think that the Lord will be pleased with His servants when He returns, after all Christianity still stand today and has for two millennium stood against it's enemies who tried to hammer away at the bible, His truth and existence and have miserably failed, proof, it lives on, it grows, it still defends, and it's truth offends. We will never sugar coat the truth, change it or reshape it in any way just because there are certain people who can't handle it. We can;t and will not corrupt the truth in favor of individuals who hate the truth, God and righteousness. I think the Lord will be please with those who rather serve Him in truth and obedience rather that the corrupt appetite of those who love sin.


I did my change. I left Christianity, and my life has been ever-so-much better since. Guilt, shame, sin, fear have all left my religious life, now, allowing me to raise my family in the nurturing embrace of the Goddess untainted by fear and hatred. I've done my part . . .


with all due respect, I say this with grief in my heart, but perhaps you were never one to begin with. If you had truly a living and Loving relationship with God as your Father, that every time you called Him Father tears of joy would run down your eyes, if you had the Love and truth of Jesus Christ in you, if you had the sure hope of eternal life and the joy of being with Him, then my friend, you were born again as a new creature and you would have no reason in your sanity to go any other way. I live this reality myself so do many others around the world. I used to be a muslim and a rebel in highschool without hope, truth and love, until i fell in tears and i looked and found myself in the loving arms of God who became man and died for me in order that i may live, who set aside His glory and became poor for my sake, so that i may become rich and glorified in Him, He died the death of a criminal, the righteous for the unrighteous, even me, so that i may be set free. I am honored, and it is a great privilege to spend the rest of my life both here now and forever more in eternity to worship Him, serve Him and know Him. I was like a slave to the heartless and callous slave master, until Christ bought and purchased my freedom, and He said give me an option to go my own way or follow Him, then I said "Lord where shall I go?, for you speak the words of eternal life" I follow Him and walk with Him with delight, nothing in this world can compare to having the riches of His mercy and Love and to know Him and be with Him forever, absolutely nothing. My friend if I could shed tears for you i would if i didn't have tears coming from my heart for my Lord's greatness right now, but i would have you come to know Him, in order to be truly free.
Also my friend, the Goddess of whom you speak of, can you trust this entity as being good intentioned, will it give you what God almighty can only give?, are you certain that this "deity" whom you serve is trustworthy and will guide you to a good end? do not take this the wrong way, but due to some personal experiences with demonic activities in my past and according to God's word I would test this deity to ensure that it's not satan himself who is misleading you, I would test this Spirit using God's word as the standard to find out whether this being is from God or not, in the bible it says, "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." 2 corinth 11:14, if you read the context in which this was being said, you will find out that in the early church of corith, there were some Christians who were heeding to pagan teachings an d misleading divination and apparitions associated demons, which the bible refers to fallen angels of God who rebelled against Him, and how these demons who were affiliated with pagan gods and goddesses would often do things to their followers that seemed good and a blessing to them, even reveal profound philosophies, but in reality and in the long run they intended evil for them, and to keep them away from the truth, and Paul was warning the Corinthians against them and to stay in the Word of God. we can have a talk about this later in particular if you wish, and i can also tell you about my own unfortunate experiences with such in similarity.

The point of living is to love my wife, raise my kids, and live out a long, peaceful, prosperous existence until my time comes to join my ancestors. The earth is being destroyed by Christian ideals, not Pagan ones, and while I fight to restore it I also fight to ensure my line and their descendants survive and prosper. As far as death is concerned, it's a natural part of life and to seek to thwart death is a perverse and unrealistic prospect in my mind. Evil exists and must be fought, but it will never be triumphed over for we carry it with us wherever we go. And I don't need a utopia -- I just need a world where I can live my life as I see fit without the interference of those who think they know what I need better than I do. Pagans don't believe in utopias. We believe in a life well-lived. That's it. That's all I need, and I am content with that. Why are you not?


your opening statement is honoring and exactly what God would intend for humanity. with the rest however, i do not agree, although that is the way you wish to perceive things contrary to reality, that is fine i cannot force you against your will, it is a step you must take.
This world you speak of, from whom do you think it comes from, and what will become of it by the time you restore it? that is not being realistic. no need for utopia?, you just described your own version. "I just need a world where I can live my life as I see fit ", so i see, you do want to be your own little god then, do you recall to what i said earlier about the great lie?, and if you have taken it in, then what does that make you? as for evil, it will be triumphed ultimately one day when the King of Kings return, today however, the triumphing begins in individuals who come to Christ until He returns.
About your contentment, it is like a rich man of much wealth, and in his youth and riches he is satisfied, until his body begins to decay, his fame and fortune fade away, loss of strength, and is about to die and meet His creator who offered him truth riches during his lifetime, and then the once rich and content man will say "sighh, if only i wasn't blinded by my temporary life complacent and riches, then I would have received the everlasting one, oh the wretched man that i am, how could i have been such a fool!!"
happiness is good in itself, but what is it conditioned around, you wanting to be your own god, or knowing your God from whom happiness comes from.?

Most of those who have tried building utopias have been Christians convinced of the unrealistic expectations their sacred books have given them. The Wise don't indulge in such foolishness. Side note: "Eastern gurus" don't "offer enlightenment" -- enlightenment, however you want to paint it, must be achieved and earned by the individual.

Christians are happy in their walk with the Lord now, we don;t need to make a utopia here. what is part of our preaching is that there is a perfect kingdom coming into the world when the King returns and He will make the perfect and new order of things. what we speak is foolishness to you, that's because you have become "wise" in your own eyes.
Enlightenment comes when you come to know the one who enlightens, only then you will know who you are in the light of the one who made you, only then you will know the purpose of your existence. Otherwise, you are without compass, and your enlghtment comes not from God, but from one less than God, really no God at all, a wanna be God, yes, his name is lucifer, did you know that he is a very good liar and deceiver, specially on an intellectual and a spiritual level,. and his destruction is coming one day. whom do you rather serve? you, lucifer, or God, if you then you have fallen into his snare, if satan, then he's also ok with that, if God, thre you hit the spot, then you will be safe from the devil and from yourself.


Which proves you haven't studied anthropology enough to know apes very well. The "naturalists" haven't established we came from apes, a huge body of scientific knowledge has been developed to establish that. And weren't you telling me to look to science for proof of Jehovah's truth and existence? Apes are apes and humans are humans, and we've become less like them over time, not more like them.

I am not talking in literal terms here, unless you are desperate. I'm off course talking in a intellectual and moral sense, i'm making a point in my sarcasm., i didn't intend to get into a scientific argument about macro evolution.


This is where you've really shot your credibility. The "great lie" is that the Radical Monotheisms sought to purge the Divine Feminine from religion and thought that they could ascend to some transhuman state by cutting off a leg. When the Big Three rejected the Goddess and tried to build a civilization and culture without Her, they screwed up big time. Absolutism inevitably leads to corruption and persecution, not freedom and prosperity. If there is a great lie here, it is that Jehovah is the only game in town and you play by his rules or burn for all eternity. That way lies tyranny and suffering, not hope and prosperity. Personally, I do shape my own reality and my life has been far, far better for it. Should I give up my happiness out of fear? Should I pawn my hard-won spiritual development for an empty sack of promises? Wisdom dictates the answer.

wow, when you go off the deep end, you really go. I'm sorry man, I love you, but this is really sad, you sound more emotional than rational, umm...did i mention earlier that my position is to speak for Christianity, and not Judaism alone and Islam.
you are a polytheist my friend, and i am a Christian monotheist, and we have nothing to do with pagans, Judeo Christianity is rooted in history and in the bible both old and new testament, both ancient Jews and Christians did and continue to reject gods and godesses, because the one true God has revealed Himself as the only one who is divine in all His attributes, eternal and infinite as the uncaused cause of all things, and he speaks against idol worship, and the gods of pagans and their religion, tradition and rituals practices, God reveals how they are rooted in demonic spirits who are misleading and dangerous, and that He alone reserves the right and worthiness of being worshiped, adhered and followed. Read the bible please, do your homework, study your history.
Also, let me ask you, when you were a kid living under you parent's roof, whose rules did you comply with?, in the country in which you live in as a citizen, do you or do you not abide by the national laws? if you lived in a King's mansion, whose laws and rules would you abide by? surely you will not say, ah forget it all, i shape my own rules and laws, etc, would you still remain in your house, your country or the king's mansion with that attitude, you would be regarded as dangerous or a rebel and be kicked out, deported or improsoned. but as it is, you would comply without complaint knowing it to be wise and right. Let me ask you another question, what are you doing in this universe?, with that attitude, it's maker will not be pleased, what do you suppose will happen to you then?, the heavens is God's throne and the earth is His footstool, and you are living around it and blespheming at the one who sitteth upon it. Surely you would not do that in the King's house on earth, would you. Are you sure you can stand before a majestic, righteous and Holy God one day with a free conscious?, you see, if you really meditate and ponder about it, the heart of man's problem is that he is in rebellion against his maker. Believe me, i am not trying to argue, i really hope and wish that you will see the reality of it. I'm only interested in truth and I love for others to hear it, not to their condemnation, but for their salvation.

You've yet to demonstrate the truth of what you say. I contend I don't need to be "saved" from the world, and those who view the universe in that way do a disservice to the rest of us. You've yet to convince me that 1. there is only one deity 2. that Jehovah is the creator of the universe 3. that we deserve to be judged and condemned under your whacky system and 4. the bible is the unerring and complete word of said deity. Indeed, you've made a lot of my points for me.


Believe me i can become much more critical and specific, would that make much of a difference though, i'm just having a general and clear reasoning with you here. I will not have time to give you detailed evidence for the historicity and credibility of the bible, the existence of the God who made Himself know in the bible, about Jesus Christ, His words and action, life, death, burial and resurrection. There are men and women who have done the job eloquently providing in sufficiency your demands. Go to the links i have posted up earlier. Off course you would have if you really are a seeker of answers and truth. Test your confidence in your knowledge and understanding, challenge your wordlview, go to those links i provided.
But let me ask you another thing, even if you obtained indisputable and hard evidence for the God of the bible and Christianity, would you want to yield then, would it guarantee that you would enter into a genuine relationship with God?, with some or a lot of people it is an unfortunate "no", even in the light of all the evidence there are people who are still "unwilling" to believe.
So is it answers, coherent reasons and evidence you are seeking, then i gladly escort you first to the bible, and if that doesn't do, how about myriads of intelligent Christian apologists. To resist it, only reveals the true nature of your will, "ok fine Christianity is true, i'm convinced, but i'm not willing to have anything to do with it", I hope this will never be the case with you. May the good Lord guide you through it.

[heat_seeker]

Yeah, this doesn't do it for me, either. Because I don't see the life I've lived as depraved or vile, and I do see that in the lives of many of the Christians I know. Which brings me back to my initial contention: that a deity such as Jehovah is abusive, conceited, unjust, and unworthy of my worship. So too is any deity who seeks to control me with fear and hatred. That's non-negotiable to me . . . and I just can't see Jehovah changing his mind or his methods any time soon. Even if he did, I doubt his followers would listen.


so is the man who is dreaming in his sleep, he doesn't know that he is dreaming unless he awakes. So is he who is drunk, he doesn't know what it means to be sober until he becomes one, so is the man who is born blind, he doesn't know what it means to see until he see light.
I do not know those you claim as "christians", I have and so do many others have seen real ones, they are Christlike and follow his example of living a life in truth, justice, mercy and compassion who are in love with their Father in heaven and their Lord Jesus Christ.
God does not seek to control, but free you, only then would you be so happy that you would want to entrust your freedom into His Loving hands, just as my heart rightly finds its place in His hand, then I am truly free. A fish would sofficate and die without water, just as a man without air, so it is with us and God. Your breath my friend comes from Him, so does your loving children whom He has blessed you with, and I'm sure a lovely wife. Truly, you don't know God, unless you come to Know Jesus the Christ first. You are always welcome. I plead with you not to resit Him while He is patient with you, before your life ends here. I encourage you to enter into His mercy. As an ex-muslim, God was black and white to me, distant, and alienated from me, interlocked into a life system of dos and don't, vain superstition, fear of retribution, reward and punishment and I would have reason to find blame and be unhappy, but as it is I have come to know the Living God through the Living King Jesus Christ, God has adopted me as His child into His holy family by grace and became my Father, and Christ as my own very heart without which i cannot do, A God so distant, so holy came so close to me in colors so bright, in Love so consuming, in mercy so rich, I have come to know the God i never knew, and I am ever satisfied in Him, and so are millions of others. That is why i share this good news with you, that you also may drink of the water of life that flows from His hands and quench your thirst forever.


At which point we'd cease being men, and I see more value in clinging to my humanity than bargaining it away for the sham of "eternal life" and eternal bliss. I mean, what would be the point of existence? Praising a deity who, clearly, needs the validation? Sorry, my gods aren't so petty. Their goals aren't eternal peace and harmony; they're far more concerned that their children learn and grow and prosper without the taint of hatred and fear.

indeed you know Him not, you are overlooking so many things that I do not know where to begin

Gee, that's a happy thought: "Worship me or I'll break your kneecaps!" Sounds more like Sauron than Jesus. If he can't get his validation voluntarily, he'll beat it out of you. Yeah, that's a worthy god to worship. Not.

must you look at things through a carnal point of view,
such is not the case,
what this entails is that in your rejecting the grace of God, one day when He returns and stand before Him, His glory, awesome power, beauty and majesty, and splendor, and the realization of His greatness and holiness and your bare nakedness of both heart, mind and soul being looked by an omniscient God will naturally bring you such great aw, terror, regret, shame that you will helplessly be brought to your knees and acknowledge and confess Him as Lord.
You will see then what you do not wish or are willing to see now.


Yeah, actually, in point of fact I would. I'd be disappointed with my own failure, if I ever bowed to Jehovah or his minions. I'd be disappointed at my weakness. Indeed, it would be so disappointing that I'd happily accept eternal torment rather than be coerced in professing something I didn't believe under the threat of fear and hatred. Time is always fleeing. Christians have been shouting "The End is nigh!" for two millennium, now, and I'm guessing I'll live a long, happy, prosperous life before I'd have to contend with that. A couple of them, at least.


your threat of fear and hatred i'm sad to say is only the manifestation of a guilty conscience, and a dislike of a God who is Love and shown His grace to humanity. Your expression above suggest that perhaps you envy a God who will get all the glory and be worshiped, and you won;t get any, it is like a hero or a superman who brought an end to world war and everyone is cheering Him and I' standing out of the crowd at a distance grinding my teeth jeering at him.

My friend God knows that the greatest and ultimate form of joy and happiness for humanity is to worship Him, and this worship is in the freedom of the Spirit, and in truth, not obligatory.
Those who will gladly bow before Him will do so because they see His worthiness and greatness. God invites us to partake in a spiritual, physical and intellectual worship of Him. I believe you have an incorrect understanding of worship and praise. I will elaborate on that later or perhaps sent you a link, or look it up yourself.
A short nib is like when you wake up in the morning and look at the beautiful nature and the sun and it brings so much aw and joy that it will result in praise (thanking) and worship ( a tender uplifting of your Spirit, and praise) towards it's maker. When your first child was born, i'm sure you were glad and joyful, when you look at the cute pudgy cheeks, the little arms and legs, the smile, the cute baby sounds, it filled your heart with gladness, and brought you in tears of joy, do you not see that the Lord made it, would you not want to look at the heavens and say thanks to the one who gifted with a beautiful child. When you thank the doctor who delivers the child from the womb, how much more for the one who designed and made the child in the womb and breathed life into the lungs. I'm sure you had such moment of joy and pleasure, and blessing, in not only this, but many other things that brought you gladness. How about drinking a cold glass of water on a dry hot sunny daym ahh the satisfaction. Such must naturally in the freedom of your Spirit and will result to praise and worship. That is not tyranny, dictatorship, and slavery, it is rather good, because it is of the Lord.

And you remember that every breath you take and every thought in your head is yours courtesy of the grace of the Goddess, who grew you in your mother's womb and gifted you with a birthright free from unnatural fear and shame and guilt and all those other tools of Jehovah. She doesn't demand anything of you but love, and she doesn't even punish you when you forget. But then again an indulgent mother has always been a better bet than an abusive father, even when the kid in question keeps going back to Dad for more abuse.

such is not the case as i'm hoping you see by now,
rather did not the Lord in His word say "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:43-45)

and also "I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth"


when has God wronged you my man, never,
but how many times have you wronged Him, many times


Funny, I don't see that. I see the unyielding grace of the Goddess in the trees (until they are cut down to print more Bibles) the incredible brilliance of Her beauty reflected eternally in Nature, from smallest atomi to greatest Galactic cluster. It is through my meditations and experience of Nature that I came to understand the lie of Jehovah and his minions, and no amount of knee-cap breaking and fearmongering and hatred will take away the truth I learned in my Mother's womb. Sorry, Jehovah, Allah and JC just can't compete with that.


I do not mean to be presumptuous, but have you by any chance had any bad experiences as a child or in your young years by a cult orginization called Jehovah's witness, cause I know they can be brutal, or did you encounter with some muslims you threatened you to submit to allah and hurt you, I don't know, whatever the case may be. My man there are many who misrepresent God, there are many false religions and movements that can do harm, but let me ask you, what fault or blemish do you find with the Lord? even His enemies back then tried Him and could not find any blame.
As for the trees, they can grow again, don;t worry about it, God provided us with them for many uses and He give us plenty seeds to make them grow for many generations to come, and the bible talks of trees and their fruit which God gives us to enjoy.
And a note, do not i beg get a false impression from me that I am trying to compete, or that this is a battle of gods of religions, i tell you, there are two kinds of Gods in this universe, one of them is the making of our own imagination or demons trying to appear as gods, or a distorted view of the real God, and then there is the one true Living God who revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. I'm not making another religious claim among others trying to get you converted through rhetoric and smooth talk and vain philosophy. It's a reality, Jesus is God, He proved it by fulifilling all the prophecies regarding Himself, He lived, died and rose again, by His resurrection He proved and backed up who He claimed to be, I'm not talking about a myth, or an embellished and exadurated figure whose character and nature was distorted by some conspiracy who changed the historical eyewitness accounts of the new testament. This is not the case, there is not one shred of evidence or sign of such superstition, all the sources we have point to the contrary. Your knowledge of this depends of your honest unbiased research.

I've had my fill of Christian apologists, thank you. After 40 years they haven't moved me to capitulate to Jehovah's fear and hate, disguised as love and compassion. All they want to do is quote scripture, which I've had a belly full of, without discussing the realities behind the religion. I'm content with my life and my Goddess and the Old Gods, and I'm content to raise my kids that way while we await the downfall of the Big Three.

I'm content for your contentment, which in itself is good,
anyhow, i doubt you are familiar with works of apologist, due to your obvious repetition of "Jehovah", i would expect that from an ex- Jehova's witness who has been affected and traumatized by the orginization's mind control and life sucking regulations and , i have such a friend who is a brother to me in Christ now, anyways, not trying to be picky, but Jehovah isn't the typical name we use, apologist would clarify that. Two, your lack of knowledge of the fact that major apologists have refuted this whole unsubstantiated speculations about the mythical and pagan influences on Christianity, if you read their work you would know and wouldn't bring it up.. Third, you have a misunderstanding of historical Christianity, it's origin and development by your putting Christianity alongside Islam and Judaism as the same. You haven't demonstrated doctrinal understanding of historical Christianity, you keep bringing up a God that is foreign and not found in Biblical and historical Christianity, you show a poor knowledge of Christian Theology regarding the nature and attributes of God. The God of the bible is not unworthy, He is not hating or abusive, He is not unjust. You show no understanding of the bible interpretive methods that has been used throughout the times to understand the bible, you just didn't show me in your criticizing and bashing that you know what Christianity really is or all about. all in all, a point really, If you read apologetic materials for 40 years we would hug now and be brothers and have no dispute with each other, because the reasons given, the evidences and proofs available, the answers provided would leave you little to know doubt that Christianity is true. Or off course i could be wrong in my judgment, perhaps you know that it is true and reject it on volitional basis as mentioned earlier.

best of wishes sir

[heat_seeker]

to tmancour

ve studied them exhaustively, academically and on my own. I stand firmly by my convictions, because they are based upon the facts of the case. I don't blame religion indiscriminately -- I blame the Radical Monotheisms that seek to convert the entire world to their point of view at the point of a sword, or use their institutional and financial dominance to subvert "alien" cultures to their liking for the Glory of God. Because the fact is that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all branches of the same tree, and Islam and Christianity further seek to convert and proselytize, contending that any means is permissible if the end is the Glory of God. Buddhism and Hinduism have never pursued that goal, only Islam and Christianity. And while some of the greatest men in the world have been Christian -- or Islamic, or Jewish -- I contend that their greatness comes from themselves, not their religion, else there would be no argument as to the superiority of any particular religion.


well how about that, we too agree that such action is wrong, how does that affect who Jesus Is and what he taught and did, the bible, God and those who faithfully followed Him? and also from a liberal point of view the three monotheistic religions do come from the same tree as they share superficial similarities , but they are fundamentally different from one another, we can get into this if you like, but that would lead us into more like a theological arena, which i don;t know if it would interest you. On historical grounds, islam is big time alienated from Judeo Christianity, in terms of many major themes, doctrine, theology, etc.
you also give a lot of credit to Buddhism and Hinduism, while they never went on the offence, have you considered their cast system, how there are so many untouchables who are looked down uppon and never helped by those of a greater order, have you seen the result of the philosophy and teachings of hunduism and budisim, a lot of passivity and ignorance to moral issues and health issues, it creates a self centered illuminated person who is content with himself, no matter how much that person smiles or looks peacfule, if he doesn't give a cup of water to a poor person he is nothing, if he doesn;t get fired and stand against injustice in the world then that also makes his religion of no value . there are millions bound in fear and frustration about paying off their karma debt, who fear that they will never get out of the cycle, there's hardly a hand reached out to help the poor and sick their. Have you noticed all the vain sacrifices they make and leave many hungry, how they value the cow, and the elephant more than a human, regarding them as gods and make great financial contributions and sacrafices to them, instead of helping the lowly and poor people. Sometimes the deadliest weapon comes certain philosophies that do more harm to a society than good.

Yet a being of such perfection would undoubtedly view human suffering and the frailties of human flesh to be minor, inconsequential issues compared to the scope of his pervue. And from that perspective such issues as death and life have, simply, no meaning -- there could only be existence and non-existence. So his theoretical incarnation, an effort by an allegedly OMNISCIENT being to understand the perspective of a vastly inferior being, would be as trivial an indulgence as a human being playing a video game as a demonstration of how he/she therefore "understood" what the video game characters felt. At the end of the game, we don't disappear in a cloud of logic and electrons, and no matter how deeply immersed into the game we feel, that understanding never leaves us. There's no way that an omniscient deity could "play" the game of life without knowing at a fundamental level that there was no real risk and that every bit of suffering was transitory and trivial in comparison. Beyond that, under this construction Jehovah wrote the game, developed the game, and is responsible for all of the rules and restrictions put in place for the "players" (us) -- which therefore makes him ultimately responsible for not just the in-game play (life) but the ultimate disposition of the game as a whole. Which means that, since Jehovah set up the "game", including the decision to judge and dispose of the players according to whatever arbitrary standards he's set, we, as players, can only be held responsible for our actions within the context of the "game". If he then gifted me with reason, insight, and an inherent understanding of basic morality and the illusion of free will and then condemns me for following the said reason, insight, understanding according to that "free will", then he has put me in a no-win position -- the "game" is inherently rigged. And according to that inherent understanding of basic morality, any deity who would rig the outcome of the "game" and seek to punish those who violated the murky and ultimately unknowable rules without a reason is a capricious, abusive, and unjust deity, no matter how much he says he loves us. Continue . . .

the only difference is that characters in video games don't have free will and a conscience and in reality humans do. You cannot give such a ridiculous and unrealistic analogy to explain the complexity of God's dealing with His creation in His infinite wisdom , God can't be compared with such ideological human figures in your finite mind who makes a world into a game with characters with some win and some don't, to draw such a conclusion you must be God to know the divine mind of God, which you aren't. It is sad to see you express a fatalistic view of God, human responsibility and reality. Such is not the case however, you seemed to have created some sort of a well thought out case as if against God in case things don;t go as you expected and then face God one day and tell Him why you rejected Him, as if you will stand corrected and God will say that He made a mistake and was wrong. Tell me, why does the existence of God must necessitate fatalism?, a lack of moral responsibility on our part? and no free will? meaning? purpose? and a real destiny?, and yet still it appears that without the notion of God you can go and live your life responsibly, morally, and freely, meaningfully with a sence of destiny., why does the mode have to change right away when God comes into the picture?, my man you would freak out if i were to tell who instilled that image of God in your mind, I once struggled with it as well. To tell you the truth, such play of words is a tendency and reasoning a way out of being ultimately accountable to God. The problem really comes when we as finite creatures acknowledge that there is an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent God and can't make sense of of the occurences in this world world with a God who shares these attributes, will think such a God is incompatible and incoherent. Once we try to understand the mind of God we become confused, wind up with the saying,"life is a game of checkers", God is deistic, there is no God, and so on. While we can implicitly apprehend God, His will, plan and calling, through His revealed word, creation, conscience and the person of Jesus, we can't explicitly comprehend His reasons and purposes for everything that happens, and ability to work things through His creation among willful and moral beings, the way how the fabrics of life are intertwined with such mind boggling complex layers and order within creation is to vast for our little mind to understand. God is ultimately reliable and trustworthy on the basis of who He is and what He did, even if we don;t always understand His ways, we should continue to have faith in Him. Just as for example your wife goes out with her friends, you will not be there to see what she says and does, but you will trust her and have faith in her. because you know the kind of person she is, you have a knowledge of her, and an intimate relationship with her, however, in light of all the possibilities, if you didn;t know her enough, or she wasn't good enough to you, or you just recently had an argument with her, or if you had low self esteem, you probably begin to theorize and speculate and question her character and trustworthiness if she were to go out, you would be paranoid and frustrated and etc, and all that time she really was being faithful to you as a wife while she was out, the problem wasn't with her, but with you.
God gives us sufficient reason as to why we can trust Him, even in dark hours, even though we do not see Him now, He never breaks a promise, yet we do, He is always faithful, and yet we are faithless, He always keeps His word, and many times we break ours.

God is vast in his divine attributes and no creature of God can share those, God would not expect them since it's impossible to have them. But when it come to rectitude, it is a quality that God demands all His creatures to have in their character.

Moreover, God also always brings good out of the messes we make, and works all things out in this fallen world for the good of those who trust in Him. My friend, the factors of pain and suffering are also a virtue in the sense that even thought it is a considered a sort of evil, it is a necessary y evil, God uses them to shape and strengthen His people in their faith and character, like a gold being refined in fire, the fruit of the result is amazing, God always brings good out of the rubbles of a people who create mess because of the choices they make.

I'm in my right mind, and as a parent I know full well that there comes a point when you have to allow your children to rise or fall on their own accord. I've got three kids, all of whom are muddy, rebellious, and have been hurt or lost at some point. As painful as it is to me, I know that a certain amount of suffering must be done on the part of my children because that's the only way that they will learn to be complete, competent adults. As a good parent, I certainly don't instruct them along a single unwavering path and then condemn them to an eternity of ceaseless torment if they fail. That would be pointless, cruel, and belie any love I've professed for them. Personally, if Jehovah is seen in a parental light, then I'd have to say that he's the worst sort of abusive parent, and under Christianity's mythos there isn't any kind of mystical Social Services that can intercede on behalf of the child against the abuser. Since staying in an abusive relationship is unwise, and I prise Wisdom over Faith that Jehovah will ever clean up his act, I'll be happy to reject that. I will heal from my wounds on my own, and I have built a life of blessings and joy already. For him to come along and tempt me away from my works with some mystical override switch that casts every aspect of my life into failure, that's a kind of abuse that I cannot, in good conscience, permit myself to endure.

I honor you parental love and care for you children and your concern for their upbringing, after all you are made in the image of God.
unfortunately your outlook of God in relation to His people is not factual, but due to some insecurities i believe.
But you already seem determined to go your way,
my friend God loses nothing when He let;s you go your way, if there would be something that would grieve God would be that you lost Him, the greatest gift and joy known to man, your eternal happiness. I cannot believe that you don't even see the fact of His calling you even now.

I do know what I'm saying. I've spent the majority of my life dealing with this issue, and when it comes to my perception of deity through his alleged "revealed word" (whichever "revealed word" you're talking about) or Jehovah's "eternal spirit" (which, from my discussions and explorations of mysticism across religions and pantheons, seems pretty much like the same "eternal spirit" every other religion feels as the cornerstone of its mystical practice) Jehovah just doesn't measure up to my standards. Period. The idea that I must not know what I'm talking about because I don't agree with you is contentious -- as far as I know, I have a much, much better idea of what is best for me and what my values and principals are than anyone else. I drank your Kool Aide once upon a time, and it didn't agree with me no matter how much I drank. Forty years later it still tastes watered down and unfulfilling, no matter how many commercials I see for it. Assuming that I did something wrong because I reached a different conclusion than you when presented with the same evidence is a faulty inference.

My man if you do not call that pride i do not know what to call it. So must the world run around you then, was I not right in mentioning the great lie you embraced. And does God, religion and truth become some sort of an accessory that you pick and choose of your own liking and add it to your life, you are indeed very good at making idols for yourself, again the God whose standard doesn't measure up to yours must be very inferior and weak, thus a you made him in your image. Not the God of the bible, i would worry about meeting His standards.
As for the Spirit, no you have it wrong, most pagan and cult and mystic religions do not regard the Spirit as the third person of the Godhead who shares all the divine attributes. They either regard the spirit as either some kind of a force, or energy or a mere manifestation of God or a spirit inferior to God.
As for you having reached a different conclusion as me, is fine with me and not fine at the same time. But i would like to ask you a question, i love asking questions, im sure you noticed that by now, it is this, as a neo- pagan, how can experience alone being one major facet in neo paganism for spiritual growth and enlightenment and connection with the the gods and goddesses and finally knowledge be a reliable basis to to know truth from error, or right from wrong, what standard do you look to to ensure you are not being mislead in your experiences. Because if it's one ting history has taught us is that experience alone cannot always be reliable to reach a certain truth or inference.

You mean, the "savior" who came to save us from the world he created in the first place? The entire Judeo-Christian-Islamic mythology is predicated on a few fundamental pieces of of sandstone: 1. There is only one God 2. God created the entire universe 3. we only live one lifetime and we will be judged in the afterlife based on our actions and beliefs of that lifetime 4. if we do not measure up to whatever arbitrary standard (usually pulled from the cultures of semi-nomadic desert-dwelling barbarians) then we are condemned to an eternity of torment for no other reason than to inflict pain and suffering on us. Oh, and 5. that some text, somewhere, is the "real" rulebook, and all others are false. If you reject ANY of these principals as the foundation of your cosmology, Radical Monotheism falls apart. Since I don't see any real evidence for the veracity of any of them, then it's quite easy to reject the idea that I need to be saved . . . from the deity who, according the above precepts, set up the game in the first place.


you only look at the surface of the matter, i will avoid having to repeat myself with the same response i give to your other posts that are of the same nature as this.
I will add,this, one can make anything appear dull and insignificant even the most important critical truths by brushing it aside with with an attitude of disinterest and neglect with a little twist of truth here and there, that however doesn't change the nature of truth and it's significance, especially that of Christianity.
would you mind generalizing the main tenets of neo -paganism in the same tone please.

Lots of people have risen from the dead. That doesn't make them all the True God. Since I don't accept the above-referenced axioms, rising from the dead is a parlor trick, a stroke of luck, or a bit of sophisticated pharmocology -- not proof-positive that the corpse in question is inherently divine.


First the ressurecction of Jesus was of a different kind, He rose with a glorified body immune to death forever. Other accounts of people rising from the dead for example i the new and old testament are people who come balck to life and then late on die again.

If you are thinking about the mythical and pagan gods of the ancients world who suppossedly rose from the dead, like mithra, Hercules, Romulus who were were assumed into heaven and the osiris the Egyptian god, you must understand a few thing about these accounts, first those you attempt to draw such parallels from these sources to the ressurrection account of Christ comes from the free thought movement who fuel the other movements such as the Jesus seminar with this concept of pagan mythology and who unjustly use the symbols and language inherent as a interpretive tool for the gospel accounts, this is what normally happens and where the wrong connections and parallels are made, it is when sensitivity is not taken into account in comparative studies in religion and literature regarding their differences and similarities or else confusion and distortion will be the result. Also most of these pagan mythical stories of gods or individuals rising back to life are merely apotheosis stories, disappearance stories, seasonal symbols for the crop cycle which is often mistaken to allude to an actual rising from the dead, then there is the political expressions of Emperor worship who are often embellished by their followers. Once you see clearly that really these parallels have nothing to do with the biblical accounts of resurrection, since first of all the Jewish concept of resurrection is radically different from the pagan mythological stories. And once you read everything within their proper context in any literature and do a just comparative analysis between the pagan world ideologies, stories and history with that of Judeo Christianity, you will see truth from error, and reality from fables.

the rest of the responses to be continued. When the whole blog turns into hot wires then we might want to end by each drawing a final conclusion to avoid confusing anyone..
Take care