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Thread: The Flowers and the Wedding -- Just the FACTS, please

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    Dept. of Redundancy Dept. Cow Poke's Avatar
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    The Flowers and the Wedding -- Just the FACTS, please

    Once again, I'm asking that we refrain from name calling, and just calmly discuss the facts of the case.

    Yeah, I know, this horse has been whipped to death, but it just won't lay down and die.

    What I want to know is simple, but I can't seem to find the actual answer in the news articles I've searched, including the "Queer Nation" website and others.

    Here's the question....
    Did Stuzman (the florist) refuse to sell "flowers"? Or did she decline to provide the SERVICE of arranging the flowers at the wedding?

    Let's establish that fact first, before arguing whether it matters or not. (To some of us it will matter, to others it won't)

    Here's Stutzman's account

    Source: NYDaily News


    He said he decided to get married, and before he got through I grabbed his hand and said, I am sorry. I can't do your wedding because of my relationship with Jesus Christ," Stutzman said. She said it was the only wedding she had declined in 37 years.

    © Copyright Original Source



    In stories that appear to favor Stutzman, there's the additional statement to the effect "he said he understood and respected my belief, and we hugged", but that's missing from the stories that tend to favor the Ingersoll and Freed.

    Again....

    Is it known that what she was refusing/declining was "selling" the flowers? Or was it "providing the flowers for the wedding"?

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 06-12-2014 at 06:11 PM.

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    Dept. of Redundancy Dept. Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Epo.....

    It appears you PURPOSELY set out to violate the very heart and intent of the OP.

    Please don't breathe your dragon breath here again.

    Please DO NOT post in this thread anymore.

    Thanks.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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    tWebber phank's Avatar
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    You might check to see what a florist usually does in order to "do" a wedding. But from your very brief description, it sounds like there was nothing the least bit nonstandard about the request.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phank View Post
    You might check to see what a florist usually does in order to "do" a wedding.
    Well, as a Pastor who also "does" weddings, I kinda sorta know. It's not just "selling flowers" - it's setting up, arranging, etc. It requires involvement in the process at the venue, as opposed to just "ringing up the cash register" in your own store.

    But from your very brief description, it sounds like there was nothing the least bit nonstandard about the request.
    I'd still like to establish the facts first, but I also think there is actually a difference between "selling flowers" (which is how most seem to spin this) and being involved in the process of delivering, setting up, and being a part of the wedding "arrangement".

    Do you have an answer to the question in the OP? To wit... Is it known that what she was refusing/declining was "selling" the flowers? Or was it "providing the flowers for the wedding"?

    And I'll further clarify the question that "providing the flowers for the wedding" also usually includes delivering them to the venue, setting them up, and being involved in the process.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    A florist does a lot more than merely hand over flowers when doing a wedding. Flowers, arranging, vessels, ribbon/bows, candles and candelabras and both putting up and taking down of arrangements (especially large ones) - there is an incredible amount of work in an average wedding. It would be the exception if the wedding were merely ordering flowers for pick up and later arrangement (done usually to save money).


    http://weddings.about.com/od/wedding...ingflorist.htm
    Last edited by Teallaura; 03-15-2014 at 07:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    A florist does a lot more than merely hand over flowers when doing a wedding. Flowers, arranging, vessels, ribbon/bows, candles and candelabras and both putting up and taking down of arrangements (especially large ones) - there is an incredible amount of work in an average wedding.
    Thanks -- that's a pretty good assessment of what a florist does when they "do" a wedding, in my 40 years of experience.

    It would be the exception if the wedding were merely ordering flowers for pick up and later arrangement (done usually to save money).
    Yes, that's "selling". (assuming somebody in the wedding party (or family or friends) does the "arrangement")

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 06-12-2014 at 06:11 PM.

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    tWebber phank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Thanks -- that's a pretty good assessment of what a florist does when they "do" a wedding, in my 40 years of experience.
    OK, if that's how things are done, then that's pretty standard.

    I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to draw here. Apparently you feel that the normal degree of florist involvement exceeds some threshhold across which lies implicit endorsement somehow.

    So if they had simply asked Stutzman to sell them the flowers over the counter, and they'd do all the setup and arrangement themselves, should she have refused THAT request? I wonder why she did not offer it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phank View Post
    OK, if that's how things are done, then that's pretty standard.
    It really is. The bigger the wedding, the more involvement required.

    I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to draw here. Apparently you feel that the normal degree of florist involvement exceeds some threshhold across which lies implicit endorsement somehow.
    Yes. The Florist had been selling flowers to the same man for a decade. Apparently, no objection. If the flowers were just "being bought", and she refused to sell them because they were "for a gay wedding", that'd be one thing. But if her presence was required at the venue, as part of the "arranging" of the wedding, that's a whole 'nuther issue.

    So if they had simply asked Stutzman to sell them the flowers over the counter, and they'd do all the setup and arrangement themselves, should she have refused THAT request?
    I would have a harder time defending that refusal.

    I wonder why she did not offer it.
    Probably the nature of the beast. The "value" of using a florist for a wedding is the fact that they deliver, arrange, do all the fancy "bows and ribbons", and are actually involved in the preparation for the ceremony.

    Honestly, though, that's why I've been trying to find out FACTUALLY if she was simply asked to "sell" the flowers, or if it was to provide the service of delivery, set up, arranging, etc that a normal wedding would require.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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