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Thread: The Flowers and the Wedding -- Just the FACTS, please

  1. #161
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Actually - I have put forward several strategies for people of faith to follow their conscience....
    I got news for you, Carpe. You're not the boss of the world, and for that, I am glad.
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  2. Amen mossrose, Mountain Man amen'd this post.
  3. #162
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    No - I have never said that, nor do I think it. Having different moral positions is NOT a basis for a claim of bigotry.



    No on two counts.

    First, I have never said "Christians are bigots." That would be an untrue statement and would be itself a form of bigotry. Unless the group is devoted to bigotry (e.g., the KKK), saying "a member of group X is a bigot" is itself a form of bigotry. My statements have always been about the specific position held (i.e., anti-gay positions). Indeed, I have explicitly acknowledged that some Christians do not hold these views. If you think otherwise, then please point me to where I have said "Christians are bigots." I do not believe that, and I do not believe I have said it. If I have - then I owe everyone here a HUGE apology. THAT would make me a bigot.

    Second, I have never said that the claim of bigotry is rooted in the fact that you don't agree with me. It is rooted in the specific nature of the moral claim being made. See my response to MM for more detail and some examples.



    No - I keep saying X, and you keep repeating back Y. But let's put that to the test, shall we. Please find a place where, in my writings, I have said "Christians are bigots," either directly or by implication. I think you will not find it.

    This entire thread is full of your insinuations that Christians are bigots, most recently right here:

    "It is immoral for a man to have sex with a man" is a moral position, and it is a bigoted one.
    But, it doesn't matter, because you will continue to claim that you've never said it or implied it and that every person here is not reading you right or misunderstanding what is clear to all of us in what you've said.

    I'm going to take a page from scripture and wipe your dust off my feet as I leave the thread.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  4. Amen Mountain Man, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  5. #163
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    "It is immoral for a black person to have sex with a white person" is a moral stand, and it is a bigoted one.
    "It is immoral for a woman to be the head of a household" is a moral position, and it is a bigoted one.
    "It is immoral for a man to have sex with a man" is a moral position, and it is a bigoted one.
    I don't suppose it has yet dawned on you that every single one of these examples is a begged question.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  6. #164
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    This entire thread is full of your insinuations that Christians are bigots, most recently right here:
    Then I submit that you are adding to my statements something I did not put there. The moral position you quoted is indeed a bigoted one, and someone holding that moral position is taking a bigoted position. That does not translate to "Christians are bigots." Those Christians who hold that moral position are adopting a bigoted position with respect to the LGBTQ community. Those who do not, are not. Those Russians who adopt that position are adopting a bigoted position. Those who do not, are not. I repeat, I have never said "Christians are bigots" and I do not think that. You are adding that to my statements.

    ETA: it dawns on me that if you believe "anyone who does not agree that same-gender sex or marriage is immoral is not a real Christian," then you will see my statements as "Christians are bigots" because, to you, all "real" Christians have this belief. The distinction between "rejecting the moral position" and "rejecting Christians" is likely to be lost on you. That doesn't change my position. It is not all Christians and it is not all of Christianity that suffers from bigotry. It is those Christians who hold this position and specifically related to this position. The position is a bigoted one, to the person holding it is bigoted with respect to this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    But, it doesn't matter, because you will continue to claim that you've never said it or implied it and that every person here is not reading you right or misunderstanding what is clear to all of us in what you've said.
    When people add to what I have said something I did not put there, I will point it out. What you choose to do with that information is entirely up to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    I'm going to take a page from scripture and wipe your dust off my feet as I leave the thread.
    You may do so if you wish, of course. It's a pretty common pattern.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-10-2019 at 07:39 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  7. #165
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I don't suppose it has yet dawned on you that every single one of these examples is a begged question.
    How are they begged questions?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #166
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I got news for you, Carpe. You're not the boss of the world, and for that, I am glad.
    I have never thought or implied I'm "boss of the world."

    Do you think that shifting the discussion to personal attacks in any way advances your argument?




    ETA: OK - I can't resist - but only because you've tugged my chain on this so often.... Last word...?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  9. #167
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post

    Do you think that shifting the discussion to personal attacks in any way advances your argument?
    Discussion? When is discussion possible with a person who brands, ipso facto, a person with opposing views as bigoted?
    No-one other than you yourself has shifted the discussion to personal attacks.
    Branding people "bigots" isn't a personal attack? In what universe would that be possible?
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  10. #168
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Yes, I would. For everyone.
    and the baker refuses to make a wedding cake for a gay wedding for anyone. Even if a straight person ordered the cake for a gay wedding he would refuse it. Problem solved.

  11. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  12. #169
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    I'm wondering how long before we bigots will be taken to task for opposing the infliction of the kind of lifestyle that has been inflicted on such children as Desmond the Amazing and Queen Lactatia. (not linking - I'll leave it to google, for those who are willing to be confronted)
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  13. Amen Mountain Man amen'd this post.
  14. #170
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Discussion? When is discussion possible with a person who brands, ipso facto, a person with opposing views as bigoted?
    My wife has an opposing view of how we should manage our finances - she is not "bigoted/prejudiced" about finances.
    You and I disagree on whether or not a god exists - you are not "bigoted/prejudiced" about god
    I disagree with MM on whether or not there should be an electoral college - he is not "bigoted/prejudiced" about the American election system.

    No matter how many times you guys try to twist what I am saying into "if we disagree - we're bigoted" - that is NOT what I am saying and not what I have EVER said. And I am going to make this my last response to that ridiculous assertion. It's not true - and I prefer to defend positions I actually hold, not positions people put in my mouth and then rail against.

    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    No-one other than you yourself has shifted the discussion to personal attacks.
    I invite you to reread the thread. The position "it is immoral for a man to have sex with a man" is a position that is bigoted and prejudiced by it's very nature. That is not easy to hear, I understand. But the statement is about the position because the position meets the definition of "bigotry" and "prejudice." Likewise, the position, "it is immoral for a white person to marry or have sex with a black person" is a position based in bigotry and prejudice.

    The response, so far, has been an argument from outrage and offense. Not a single person has addressed the actual core issue, which I have outlined several times. If you want to convince, simply set aside the outrage and address the arguments. Outrage is not a convincing argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Branding people "bigots" isn't a personal attack? In what universe would that be possible?
    There is no way to say "that position is bigoted" without causing offense. Nobody likes to hear that they hold bigoted views. That does not mean they are not bigoted views. If you want me to be politically correct to avoid treading on your sensibilities, you've come to the wrong place. I prefer to name a thing for what it is.

    I invite you to address the core part of the argument - and show that the position is NOT bigoted. I suspect, if you were to actually try to do that, you would find yourself facing the inevitable reality. Then you would be in a conundrum: you live your life by your bible and your bible contains a bigoted position. Do you continue to live by it, or will that be an indication to you that maybe something is wrong with how you structure and arrive at your beliefs?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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