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Thread: The Flowers and the Wedding -- Just the FACTS, please

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    tWebber phank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Honestly, though, that's why I've been trying to find out FACTUALLY if she was simply asked to "sell" the flowers, or if it was to provide the service of delivery, set up, arranging, etc that a normal wedding would require.
    I'm not sure I'm still following you here. They COULD have asked her just to tend the cash register, and done the arrangements themselves. Why didn't they? Were they trying to manufacture a test case here? If they had, should she have accepted? Why didn't she offer to negotiate along those lines?

    And I'm still trying to identify the threshhold you agreed existed but didn't delineate. Is the floral arrangement and setup done ahead of time, or is it done during the actual ceremony? If Stutzman were asked to do preliminary setup but not be present for the ceremony, would THAT have been acceptable to you? Is there some part of the ceremony that's over the line? Could Stutzman step out during that part, but then return for the reception? I confess I really don't understand the nature of her objection. Is it to the entire ceremony, or is it to the condition of marriage that exists after the ceremony? If her customer of 10 years should come in to buy flowers AFTER (say, months after) the wedding, would she be willing to sell them? Can you explain?

  2. #12
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phank View Post
    I'm not sure I'm still following you here. They COULD have asked her just to tend the cash register, and done the arrangements themselves. Why didn't they? Were they trying to manufacture a test case here? If they had, should she have accepted? Why didn't she offer to negotiate along those lines?
    From all I have been able to tell, when they asked her to do the wedding, she explained she couldn't. They, at the time, told her they understood, and respected her position. It was subsequent to that that the State Attorney General got involved, then the ACLU, and they were off to the races.

    And I'm still trying to identify the threshhold you agreed existed but didn't delineate.
    I thought I did, but I appreciate your calm and rational response, and will be happy to work through this.

    Is the floral arrangement and setup done ahead of time, or is it done during the actual ceremony?
    It is done at the venue, most of it would be prior to the actual ceremony, yes.

    If Stutzman were asked to do preliminary setup but not be present for the ceremony, would THAT have been acceptable to you?
    Personally, I would object. But you do raise an interesting point. The photographer IS required to be there during the ceremony, of course. (Side issue, I know, but hadn't really thought about that distinction)

    Is there some part of the ceremony that's over the line? Could Stutzman step out during that part, but then return for the reception? I confess I really don't understand the nature of her objection. Is it to the entire ceremony, or is it to the condition of marriage that exists after the ceremony? If her customer of 10 years should come in to buy flowers AFTER (say, months after) the wedding, would she be willing to sell them? Can you explain?
    I can't speak for her, Phank, but I would assume it's the same as my objection. The wedding ceremony is the celebration of a decision to be life partners. My involvement in that is a tacit approval - I would be materially contributing to something I fundamentally opposed.

    As for selling flowers AFTER the fact -- simply an over-the-counter sale -- I have no control or interest in how those flowers are used. I don't need to know, I don't have an interest in knowing -- it's just another sale.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    tWebber phank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    From all I have been able to tell, when they asked her to do the wedding, she explained she couldn't. They, at the time, told her they understood, and respected her position. It was subsequent to that that the State Attorney General got involved, then the ACLU, and they were off to the races.
    I don't know those details.


    Personally, I would object. But you do raise an interesting point. The photographer IS required to be there during the ceremony, of course. (Side issue, I know, but hadn't really thought about that distinction)
    OK, so we're getting things pinned down here! You would be willing to SELL the flowers, you wouldn't be willing to set them up. Would you be willing to deliver them, and drive off? If the delivery involved carrying them from the truck to the hall, would THAT be the threshhold?

    These may sound like stupid questions, and maybe they are, but as you're aware I simply am unable to grasp the nature of the objection in the first place. So in my own mind, I need to pin down exactly which action steps over the line. Could she have carried them in but have someone else set them down? Could she have carried them to the door, but had someone else take them from there? If you were in her position, exactly how far would you go before saying "this is too far", and why would it be THAT point and not some other point?



    I can't speak for her, Phank, but I would assume it's the same as my objection. The wedding ceremony is the celebration of a decision to be life partners. My involvement in that is a tacit approval - I would be materially contributing to something I fundamentally opposed.

    As for selling flowers AFTER the fact -- simply an over-the-counter sale -- I have no control or interest in how those flowers are used. I don't need to know, I don't have an interest in knowing -- it's just another sale.
    But this also helps me, which I appreciate. So your objection is to the wedding and not the marriage. That's interesting. So if the marriage were a simple JP affair at the courthouse, but the newlyweds threw a party the next month, would you object to lifting a glass with them at that event?

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phank View Post
    I don't know those details.
    Neither do I -- that is the intent of the thread. It depends on what story is being told by which side how these details are "painted".

    OK, so we're getting things pinned down here! You would be willing to SELL the flowers, you wouldn't be willing to set them up. Would you be willing to deliver them, and drive off? If the delivery involved carrying them from the truck to the hall, would THAT be the threshhold?
    Hmmm... hadn't even thought of that. I either buy my flowers from Krogers, or borrow them from the local cemetery. (KIDDING!!!! I stopped doing that long ago!!!!) Seriously, I stopped dealing with "real florists" long ago, so I wasn't even thinking about the fact that "real florists" deliver as a regular part of their business.

    Good question, Phank... lemme give that a mull.

    These may sound like stupid questions,
    Not at all!

    and maybe they are, but as you're aware I simply am unable to grasp the nature of the objection in the first place. So in my own mind, I need to pin down exactly which action steps over the line. Could she have carried them in but have someone else set them down? Could she have carried them to the door, but had someone else take them from there? If you were in her position, exactly how far would you go before saying "this is too far", and why would it be THAT point and not some other point?
    Perhaps my problem (if you want to call it a problem) is that a "wedding / marriage" is still, in my mind, the coming together of two people in "Holy Matrimony". I thought that's why "civil unions" were becoming "the thing". There is nothing "Holy" about two persons committing to live together in a sinful relationship. Since Stuzman identifies herself as a Christian, I'm assuming this is her sticking point, as well.

    I have never performed, as a minister, a "wedding" that was not "Holy Matrimony". When somebody wanted a "non religious wedding", I would refer them to the local justice of the peace, or others who I knew would not object. I think I would be inclined to do the same thing with other "wedding related" services. There are others who have no problem with "gay marriages".

    But this also helps me, which I appreciate. So your objection is to the wedding and not the marriage. That's interesting. So if the marriage were a simple JP affair at the courthouse, but the newlyweds threw a party the next month, would you object to lifting a glass with them at that event?
    lemme get this in a separate post.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  6. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  7. #15
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phank View Post
    But this also helps me, which I appreciate. So your objection is to the wedding and not the marriage. That's interesting. So if the marriage were a simple JP affair at the courthouse, but the newlyweds threw a party the next month, would you object to lifting a glass with them at that event?
    Hmmmm... "lifting a glass" implies, in a sense, a "blessing" or... I'm not sure we're using the same definitions or understandings of "wedding" vs. "marriage".

    I'll try first --- the "wedding" is the event at which the "marriage" commences or is recognized or "celebrated", yes?
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    A florist's work is also their advertising (it's pretty obvious you guys are both guys - this bit is self evident to any woman. It's the first thing we ask after saying 'wow, the flowers are beautiful!'). Florists depend heavily on 'word of mouth' advertising for event work. Being known as the person that did the gorgeous arrangements at so-and-so's wedding is how you get more business for events. Whether or not the florist is onsite during the wedding (depends entirely on re-use, which is still relatively rare), their name is going to be associated with the event.

    Acting as wholesaler is iffy - I would expect Aunt Whatshername to get credit if she did the arranging but it's very possible and even probable that the florist's name would also come up (where did you get those...) so I can see arguments both ways on that one.

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    tWebber phank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Hmmmm... "lifting a glass" implies, in a sense, a "blessing" or... I'm not sure we're using the same definitions or understandings of "wedding" vs. "marriage".

    I'll try first --- the "wedding" is the event at which the "marriage" commences or is recognized or "celebrated", yes?
    Yes, that's what I intend. My wedding was a quick JP deal, because we aren't into big productions. We simply wanted to change our status to married, and that sufficed. But I did have friends and when I told them I had gone and committed marriage, they were willing to have a beer with me. So yes, it did have the air of a celebration, but not an actual event. The event was either signing the form or handing over the $20, I'm not sure which.

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    tWebber phank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    A florist's work is also their advertising (it's pretty obvious you guys are both guys - this bit is self evident to any woman. It's the first thing we ask after saying 'wow, the flowers are beautiful!'). Florists depend heavily on 'word of mouth' advertising for event work. Being known as the person that did the gorgeous arrangements at so-and-so's wedding is how you get more business for events. Whether or not the florist is onsite during the wedding (depends entirely on re-use, which is still relatively rare), their name is going to be associated with the event.

    Acting as wholesaler is iffy - I would expect Aunt Whatshername to get credit if she did the arranging but it's very possible and even probable that the florist's name would also come up (where did you get those...) so I can see arguments both ways on that one.
    So do you think it would have been acceptable for her to do the standard florist stuff, but agree not to have her name mentioned?

    Not having internalized any of the religious faith stuff, I really don't know if Jesus would frown on her providing flower to celebrate the wedding. But I would guess that even if she kept her role secret, she'd know in her heart that Jesus would know what she did and, I don't know -- what DOES Jesus do to you if you screw up?

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    A florist's work is also their advertising (it's pretty obvious you guys are both guys -
    What an incredibly sexist and insensitive remark! You need to go directly to muliticultural sensitivity training, and QUICK -- do NOT pass go, do NOT collect $200.00!!
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phank View Post
    Yes, that's what I intend. My wedding was a quick JP deal, because we aren't into big productions. We simply wanted to change our status to married, and that sufficed. But I did have friends and when I told them I had gone and committed marriage, they were willing to have a beer with me. So yes, it did have the air of a celebration, but not an actual event. The event was either signing the form or handing over the $20, I'm not sure which.
    Hmmmm... our "relationship" is one of supplier/buyer, and isn't, and hasn't been, "social". I would politely decline "raising a glass" to your same sex wedding, yes.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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