No such thing as Messianic Jewish Christian.

[learning]

Salty, how do you explain 'And his name shall be called, 'Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the everlasting Father' when it was speaking about 'For unto us a son is born' ? Isaiah 9:6
http://biblos.com/isaiah/9-6.htm (in Greek, Hebrew and Latin as well as english)

[Dani' El]

The concept of a "Messianic Jew" flys in the face of both Judaism, and Christianity.

In Judaism, the idea of an "incarnate God" is heresy. --- In Christianity, all temporal (i.e, physical, social, religious) tags are disolved by reason of the fact that the Christian dies to all human, social, or religious reality, when he dies with Christ on the cross.

If the Christian was a Jew before he dies with Christ, he, like Jesus of Nazareth, leaves his Judaism behind to enter into a relationship with God that transcends all human concepts, such as "Judaism," or any other human concept based on unscathed flesh.

Judaism is mediated by the Torah scroll. ----- The Christian's Torah scroll was Jesus of Nazareth.

In Jewish mysticism the Hebrew alphabet, from Aleph to Tav, represents the Torah. --- The last letter of the Hebrew alphabet is the letter Tav. Originally the Tav was a "cross" so that when Jesus, the Christian's Torah scroll, was nailed to the cross, i.e. the Tav . . . he represented the oportunity to leave the Jewish Torah scroll behind, and enter into a relationship outside of the Torah scroll (beyond the last letter) . . . a relationship unmediated by laws and words and commandments, a relationship "face-to-face" with God.

To suggest that a Jew can pass through the cross and remain in the written Torah scroll is not true. When a Jew enters the Body of Christ, it is through the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet. He passes beyond the written Torah and he can never again return to the guf, or tomb, of the dead lettter.

I took a brief scan of the comments on this thread, and I think most of what I have to say has already been said by others, but I just want to say it in my own words.

I am an Israeli.
That is, of the house of Israel.
Specifically, of the house of Judah, so yes, also a Jew.

Talmudic Judaism, with all its extrabiblcal laws and restrictions,, IS NOT the faith of the fathers.
It is called Judaism, but it is not. It is the creation of men, rabbis who do not know YHWH.

When my scales fell away, and the Messiah of Israel was revealed to me, I repented and put my faith in Yeshua and was saved, but nothing happened in my genetics to make me no longer an Israeli, or Jew.
Any more than it did to Yeshua, Paul, or the Apostles.

And like James and the Jerusalem church, or Peter, and all the apostles, I keep kashrut and Shabbat, the feasts, not out of any legalist sense, but because I chose to do so as a Jew whose focus is to witnesses to other Jews.

1Co 9:20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

All the extra-biblical rulings of the rabbis about who is a Jew by birth (by a Jewish mother) or who loses their Jewish birthright by converting to Christianity mean NOTHING to me or God.

The truth is, a Jew is one inwardly and out, and no true Jew can deny the Messiah, even according to the traditions of the rabbis. So who is a real Jew? A Messianic Jew.

All of the eschatology of the bible clearly refers to the house of Israel and her conversion, the 12,000 of each tribe, and the nation of priests that is Israel in the millennial kingdom of Messiah Yeshua. And yes, we will remain Jews. In fact, we are the ONLY real Jews.

[Gavriel]

You are not Israeli. You are a San Francisician Christian.

[John Goddard]

You are not Israeli. You are a San Francisician Christian.

You make the common mistake of trying to force Messianic Jews into the Christian category because they don't reject Jesus.

Muslims also don't reject Jesus but they are still Muslims, not Christians.

[Dani' El]

You are not Israeli. You are a San Francisician Christian.

In the sense that I am of the house of Israel, I am an Israeli.

And I am making Aliyah this year.

[Gavriel]

In the sense that I am of the house of Israel, I am an Israeli.

IF you were born Jewish, you have subsquently been cut off with your heretical beliefs and are not part of the House, if you were not born Jewish, you were never part of that house in the first place.

And I am making Aliyah this year.

You mean moving.

[Gavriel]

You make the common mistake of trying to force Messianic Jews into the Christian category because they don't reject Jesus.

Muslims also don't reject Jesus but they are still Muslims, not Christians.

The only mistake here is your strawman argument.

[John Goddard]

The only mistake here is your strawman argument.

I thought I was on your ignore list? TK obviously has more control than you do, I'll give him that.

Anyway...aren't you trying to force a Christian label on Jewish Dani' El because he doesn't deny Jesus?

The Quran doesn't deny Jesus either, do you also try to force a Christian label on Muslims who believe the Quran? If not isn't that a double standard?

Quran 3:45 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

Additionally you tell him, "IF you were born Jewish, you have subsquently been cut off with your heretical beliefs and are not part of the House..."

Do you also say the same thing to Jewish atheists, that they are no longer Jews because they take a heretical position of denying the Jewish God? If not, isn't that also a double standard?

[Gavriel]

I thought I was on your ignore list? TK obviously has more control than you do, I'll give him that.

Obviously it's not working well, so need to update my sig!

Anyway...aren't you trying to force a Christian label on Jewish Dani' El because he doesn't deny Jesus?

I'm not forcing anything on Daniel, his own profile states:

Theological Position Summary: Reformed Christianity
Testimony: I was elected to salvation in Aug 2005 when God opened my eyes and ears, granting repentance and faith in Messiah Yeshua.

The Quran doesn't deny Jesus either, do you also try to force a Christian label on Muslims who believe the Quran? If not isn't that a double standard?

No, and it's not a double standard because I never gave my standard for what a Chrsitian vs what a Muslim is...

Additionally you tell him, "IF you were born Jewish, you have subsquently been cut off with your heretical beliefs and are not part of the House..."

Do you also say the same thing to Jewish atheists, that they are no longer Jews because they take a heretical position of denying the Jewish God? If not, isn't that also a double standard?

Yes, Jewish atheists are heretical and cut off. They can certainly return later, however remain cut off until that point.

[Dani' El]

IF you were born Jewish, you have subsquently been cut off with your heretical beliefs and are not part of the House, if you were not born Jewish, you were never part of that house in the first place.

I was born Jewish, and I remain Jewish. You are the heretic and this will be proven soon enough. I'm sure you are waiting for Elijah to come first?
Then I will ask you to make a pledge to listen and obey all he says. Because he will tell you that the Messiah of Israel is Yeshua of Nazareth.

You mean moving.

I am making Aliyah this year to Israel.
Look for me in Jerusalem declaring the gospel to the house of Israel.

My real name is-
Dani' El Ben Freeman

[John D. Brey]

Talmudic Judaism, with all its extrabiblcal laws and restrictions,, IS NOT the faith of the fathers.
It is called Judaism, but it is not. It is the creation of men, rabbis who do not know YHWH.

When my scales fell away, and the Messiah of Israel was revealed to me, I repented and put my faith in Yeshua and was saved, but nothing happened in my genetics to make me no longer an Israeli, or Jew.

Genetically speaking, Jesus was the Messiah. That was his rightful title. And by genetics, and history, and the written Torah, Jesus should have ascended to the throne of David.

But he died to all that on the cross. ----- And since the NT is clear that Jesus' offer of his Messiahship to Israel was real, and genuine . . . we know that that is what the written Torah spoke of . . . that and not the cross.

The cross is a mystery that was unknown to the angel who wrote the written Torah. That angel did not know anything about the cross. ----- Israel knew nothing of the cross. ----- Jesus disciples knew nothing of the cross. They were shocked and dismayed until the Holy Spirit reveal the Mystery to them.

What I'm getting at, is that Jesus did not fulfill his mission to Israel. He did something not written in the written Torah. He started a new dispensation that wasn't presupposed in the written Torah. ----- Those of us who are part and parcel of His Body (currently being formed) are neither Jews nor Gentiles. We died to titles like that. We are aliens in relationship to the world, and brothers in relationship to God. We are "Christians" and our Jewishness, or Gentileness is meaninglessness in comparison to what we are in Christ.

The writers of the Zohar are not Christians, yet they are some of the most God-fearing men who ever lived. They are moved and motivated by the Holy Spirit of God, as is any Christian (far more than most Christians). But they do not recognize Jesus Christ as Lord (as you yourself didn't until recently). ------ These Jewish sages are beloved of God. But for the outworking of His Will and Purpose, these great Jewish sages have a veil over their eyes which makes it impossible for them to see the Light of God in Christ Jesus.

The veil that blinds these men is not of themselves. It is of Satan. God has allowed Satan to blind them to the glory of Christ Jesus, not so that they might be unredeemed, but so that they will be saved as "Jews" and not as "Christians." ---- They will be resurrected to people this terrestrial realm, while we will be resurrected to live in heaven.


Dan

[Dani' El]

Genetically speaking, Jesus was the Messiah. That was his rightful title. And by genetics, and history, and the written Torah, Jesus should have ascended to the throne of David.

But he died to all that on the cross. ----- And since the NT is clear that Jesus' offer of his Messiahship to Israel was real, and genuine . . . we know that that is what the written Torah spoke of . . . that and not the cross.

The cross is a mystery that was unknown to the angel who wrote the written Torah. That angel did not know anything about the cross. ----- Israel knew nothing of the cross. ----- Jesus disciples knew nothing of the cross. They were shocked and dismayed until the Holy Spirit reveal the Mystery to them.

What I'm getting at, is that Jesus did not fulfill his mission to Israel. He did something not written in the written Torah. He started a new dispensation that wasn't presupposed in the written Torah. ----- Those of us who are part and parcel of His Body (currently being formed) are neither Jews nor Gentiles. We died to titles like that. We are aliens in relationship to the world, and brothers in relationship to God. We are "Christians" and our Jewishness, or Gentileness is meaninglessness in comparison to what we are in Christ.

The writers of the Zohar are not Christians, yet they are some of the most God-fearing men who ever lived. They are moved and motivated by the Holy Spirit of God, as is any Christian (far more than most Christians). But they do not recognize Jesus Christ as Lord (as you yourself didn't until recently). ------ These Jewish sages are beloved of God. But for the outworking of His Will and Purpose, these great Jewish sages have a veil over their eyes which makes it impossible for them to see the Light of God in Christ Jesus.

The veil that blinds these men is not of themselves. It is of Satan. God has allowed Satan to blind them to the glory of Christ Jesus, not so that they might be unredeemed, but so that they will be saved as "Jews" and not as "Christians." ---- They will be resurrected to people this terrestrial realm, while we will be resurrected to live in heaven.


Dan

Nonsense.
I despise replacement theology.

When Yeshua returns, He will be as Jewish as the day He was born.

He is going to be coming back as the Lion of Judah, and all the eschatology of scripture in the tanakh and NT will be fulfilled.
Including the Millennial reign in Israel from Jerusalem, with the house of Israel a nation of priests.
12,000 of each tribe, the 144,000 JEWISH evangelists will again take the lead, as at the beginning, in preaching the gospel to the world.

The holy of holies of prophecy, the conversion of the house of Israel in Ezekiel will be fulfilled.
All of it, or God would be a liar.

Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

[John D. Brey]

Nonsense.
I despise replacement theology. . . When Yeshua returns, He will be as Jewish as the day He was born.

He is going to be coming back as the Lion of Judah, and all the eschatology of scripture in the tanakh and NT will be fulfilled.
Including the Millennial reign in Israel from Jerusalem, with the house of Israel a nation of priests.
12,000 of each tribe, the 144,000 JEWISH evangelists will again take the lead, as at the beginning, in preaching the gospel to the world.

The holy of holies of prophecy, the conversion of the house of Israel in Ezekiel will be fulfilled.
All of it, or God would be a liar.

I dont' disagree with anything you've said here. ----- Like you, I reject the idea that Christians displace, or replace Jews. ---- That's not what I am saying.

Jesus will indeed fulfill the covenants to Israel. ---- But only after the resurrection of the Church . . . which is His Body. ----- We're speaking of two different dispensations. . . Both valid and true. But both of different natures.


Dan

[Dani' El]

I dont' disagree with anything you've said here. ----- Like you, I reject the idea that Christians displace, or replace Jews. ---- That's not what I am saying.

Jesus will indeed fulfill the covenants to Israel. ---- But only after the resurrection of the Church . . . which is His Body. ----- We're speaking of two different dispensations. . . Both valid and true. But both of different natures.


Dan

Forgive me if I misunderstood you, but it was sounding a lot like Replacement theology and that stuff really busts my chops.

I confess I'm having a hard time with what you are trying to say.
But I will say this, I am today, this very hour, a Jew.
A Jew who knows the Messiah of Israel and is saved by His atoning sacrifice on the cross.

I've got to go but I'll back tomorrow to try and understand what you are saying better.

Baruch HaShem,
Dani' El

[Salty]

Wow. Do you mind if I call you Stretch? Because you reached really, really far to come up with the following responses.

Zechariah 12:8 ...the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

So Messiah as leader as the House of David looks like God to Gentiles.

The context and phrasing does not suggest such a metonymy. You're seeing Jss in your toast again.

Which is like if the Temple was restored and Jews said it was unnecessary because they could pray to God directly instead, without sacrifices or going through priests. Would you suggest Jews do that, or follow the rules and go through the priests?

Sorry, I don't get your connection between a restored temple and replacing a perfect system with one that celebrates an abominable human sacrifice. Probably because there isn't one.

Not a human sacrifice, but sacrifice as a martyr like a lot of Jews did so we can know God. Even Abraham and Isaac must have suffered at just the thought of sacrificing Isaac, but their suffering also allowed the whole world to know God better.

Admirable try, but it doesn't work. Christianity does not view the crucifixion as a martyrdom, but as an atoning sacrifice; you make lots of comparisons with lambs, scapegoat, etc.

So the sacrifice of righteous Jews eventually causes many wicked Jews to repent sooner or later. Sometimes later.

You're really not far from understanding the real prophecy of Isaiah 53. Just substitute 'wicked Jews' with 'Gentile nations'.

Messiah is King of the House of Israel, and an Israelite too.

Ezekiel 37:4-5 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Again, metonymy does not fit the context. This is talking about Israel, not just its messiah. You even bolded the part that plainly states my case. Seriously, it's just burnt bits on the toast.

Almost the whole Gentile world knows the Tanach through the Christian Bible, so this prophecy in accordance to being a light of Gentiles is on its way to being complete, thanks to Jesus.

It's too late for any other Messiah to be responsible for getting the Tanach out to all corners of the world, it's yesterday's news.

There is no doubt in my mind that God has used Christianity to prepare Gentiles. But hearing about Tanakh is a far, far cry from knowing God, and knowing that He is the only God so that no one needs to be taught about Him or His way.