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Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

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  • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
    John 1:1-2 Literal
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was god. . .
    This one was in the beginning with The God.
    BU

    Technically θεος rendered "god" or "God," the capitalization is a matter of recognizing deity. Jehovah told Isaiah (43:10), ". . . before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."

    And in 2 Corinthians 4:4, ο θεος is rendered "the god."
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Technically θεος rendered "god" or "God," the capitalization is a matter of recognizing deity. Jehovah told Isaiah (43:10), ". . . before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."

      And in 2 Corinthians 4:4, ο θεος is rendered "the god."
      The Word - One of.
      The God - One of.
      Satan god - One of.
      μονογενὴς θεὸς - One of. A created god by God. So God is the only ONE and can Create a god, but as The Scriptures say he is the "God of god."

      BU
      Last edited by Bibleuser; 01-16-2018, 01:23 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
        "God" is a relative term. This may help
        So is Jesus a God, well yes, related to all things except the Father who is call "Almighty," then he becomes "god."
        BU
        Then why did God say that he is the ONLY God and there is no other? That none were made before him nor after him?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
          The Word - One of.
          The God - One of.
          Satan god - One of.
          μονογενὴς θεὸς - One of. A created god by God. So God is the only ONE and can Create a god, but as The Scriptures say he is the "God of god."

          BU
          Then according to your explanation God lied when He said to Isaiah (43:10), ". . . before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Well a couple issues here. John 1:1 is to be correctly translate "The Word was God." In the very least, in same way Jehovah had Moses to be "God" to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1). Twice we are told that the Word was "with God," John 1:1 & 1:2. Someone "with" or facing another is not the other. Is that not true? [Do not forget, I do hold to a Trinity view point. Most Trinitarians do not understand how the Word was not God being called God.]
            John 1:1-2 Literal
            In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was god. . .
            This one was in the beginning with The God.
            BU
            Bibleuser, did you understand? Let me state it this way. As Jehovah had Moses represent Himself to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1), Jehovah had the Word represent Himself to all of His creation (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17; Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 1:2). Can you comment on this?
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • The Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar says that John 1:1 has to be translated as "and the Word was God" not "a God"

              "Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person."

              https://www.theopedia.com/granville-sharps-rule

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jpholding View Post
                I answer that too, but in an article behind a paywall. You can write me for a free copy.

                The sum of it though is that the whole "god or man" question is based on modern ideas about how we reckon identity. Ancient people, the way they classed identity, would not have had any problems with this.
                Quick question: Why was the trinity an issue in the early church then?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  The Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar says that John 1:1 has to be translated as "and the Word was God" not "a God"

                  "Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person."

                  https://www.theopedia.com/granville-sharps-rule
                  According to David Bentley Hart, John 1:1 is an ambiguous statement about Jesus' divinity in the Greek (perhaps deliberately so); Thomas the apostle's statement toward the end of the book (John 20:28) is rather more definite in his opinion. He has some fairly extensive footnotes regarding the issue in his translation of the NT.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Goulette View Post
                    Quick question: Why was the trinity an issue in the early church then?
                    Why should the explanation be the problem? Trinity is the name of the explanation.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      Why should the explanation be the problem? Trinity is the name of the explanation.


                      I was asking why the early church, which began in ancient times, struggled to define the doctrine if, as JPH said, "Ancient people, the way they classed identity, would not have had any problems with this."

                      (Although perhaps it wasn't the church at large that had a hard time with the time, but certain leaders who were excommunicated for not getting it. Certain people of the Tassman type.)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        The Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar says that John 1:1 has to be translated as "and the Word was God" not "a God"

                        "Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person."

                        https://www.theopedia.com/granville-sharps-rule
                        How do you figure ? Granville Sharp rule deals the the T(article) S (Substantive) K (Kai) S (Substantive) construction, in John 1:1c there is no such construction to begin with:

                        καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
                        Rather here we have a Subject - Predicate Nominative construction.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
                          So, "only flesh" died. This clearly contradicts what you affirmed early on, namely, the God-man died. Unless I misunderstood you.
                          I like to know exactly who died on the cross for Trinitarians ?

                          According to the doctrine of anhypostasis, Jesus does not have a human hypostasis (or human person) in common with us. His humanity was assumed by the Divine person at conception so that he is only ever a Divine person, and not a Divine and human person nor just a human person, even though he has Divine nature and human nature.

                          Thus if a Trinitarian says that "the human Jesus / Jesus the human / the human nature of Jesus (etc.) died on the cross for my sins" they're saying that something (a nature) and not someone (a person) died for their sins. If on the other hand they say "the person of Jesus Christ / Jesus Christ himself / the Second Divine person of the Holy Trinity died for my sins" they're saying that God himself died for their sins.

                          It is not an enviable position to be in.


                          Catechism of the Catholic Church

                          466 The Nestorian heresy regarded Christ as a human person joined to the divine person of God's Son. Opposing this heresy, St. Cyril of Alexandria and the third ecumenical council, at Ephesus in 431, confessed "that the Word, uniting to himself in his person the flesh animated by a rational soul, became man."89 Christ's humanity has no other subject than the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it and made it his own, from his conception. For this reason the Council of Ephesus proclaimed in 431 that Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb: "Mother of God, not that the nature of the Word or his divinity received the beginning of its existence from the holy Virgin, but that, since the holy body, animated by a rational soul, which the Word of God united to himself according to the hypostasis, was born from her, the Word is said to be born according to the flesh."90

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                            I like to know exactly who died on the cross for Trinitarians ?
                            Jesus. Like us, He was/is comprised of flesh and spirit. His/our flesh dies. Spirit does not die. And natures do not die.

                            According to the doctrine of anhypostasis, Jesus does not have a human hypostasis (or human person) in common with us. His humanity was assumed by the Divine person at conception so that he is only ever a Divine person, and not a Divine and human person nor just a human person, even though he has Divine nature and human nature.
                            No it doesn't.

                            Source: Donald Macleod - The Person of Christ

                            Christ took human nature, but he did not take a man. He took the form of a servant (Philippians 2:7), but not a servant. He did not even take an existing human genotype or embryo. He created the genotype in union with himself, and it’s ‘personality’ developed only in union with the Son of God . . . [H]e is a divine person who, without ‘adopting’ an existing human person took our human nature and entered upon the whole range of human experiences.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Thus if a Trinitarian says that "the human Jesus / Jesus the human / the human nature of Jesus (etc.) died on the cross for my sins" they're saying that something (a nature) and not someone (a person) died for their sins.
                            Completely untrue. The death being spoken about on the cross is the physical death of the flesh, which everyone with a human nature experiences. Our human "nature" dies" because that nature is human flesh. Flesh dies.

                            If on the other hand they say "the person of Jesus Christ / Jesus Christ himself / the Second Divine person of the Holy Trinity died for my sins" they're saying that God himself died for their sins.
                            He did. Since He took on flesh, that flesh died. The Spirit of Christ did not die any more than yours or mine do at our end of this mortal life.

                            It is not an enviable position to be in.
                            It is the logical one.


                            Catechism of the Catholic Church
                            Nestorianism taught that there was a separating of the 2 natures of human and God. And it was rightly condemned. Jesus was FULLY human and FULLY God. Therefore, to say the man Jesus died without saying God died is heresy.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              Jesus. Like us, He was/is comprised of flesh and spirit. His/our flesh dies. Spirit does not die. And natures do not die.



                              No it doesn't.

                              Source: Donald Macleod - The Person of Christ

                              Christ took human nature, but he did not take a man. He took the form of a servant (Philippians 2:7), but not a servant. He did not even take an existing human genotype or embryo. He created the genotype in union with himself, and it’s ‘personality’ developed only in union with the Son of God . . . [H]e is a divine person who, without ‘adopting’ an existing human person took our human nature and entered upon the whole range of human experiences.

                              © Copyright Original Source





                              Completely untrue. The death being spoken about on the cross is the physical death of the flesh, which everyone with a human nature experiences. Our human "nature" dies" because that nature is human flesh. Flesh dies.



                              He did. Since He took on flesh, that flesh died. The Spirit of Christ did not die any more than yours or mine do at our end of this mortal life.



                              It is the logical one.




                              Nestorianism taught that there was a separating of the 2 natures of human and God. And it was rightly condemned. Jesus was FULLY human and FULLY God. Therefore, to say the man Jesus died without saying God died is heresy.
                              Don't know how that addresses the issue (red above).

                              Would you agree that persons (people) die, and not just their human nature?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                                Don't know how that addresses the issue (red above).

                                Would you agree that persons (people) die, and not just their human nature?
                                No. Our flesh dies. That's all.
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                                Comment

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