Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

[Bill the Cat]

I’m glad you realize that we are dealing with similes at James 2:26. Do you understand that when someone says the body is useless ( “dead” ) without the soul, it’s NOT the same as saying that death is the separation of the soul from the body ?

That's EXACTLY what it is saying!!

[Unitarian101]

That's EXACTLY what it is saying!!

No, that’s profound biblical eisegesis. You really do not see it ? Perhaps a T/F question would cause you to see:

Question: “The body is ‘dead’ (ie. inoperable/broken) without the spirit “ is saying something about the condition of the body without a soul, and not necessarily defining the literal death which God spoke about in Genesis 2:17 which every human being is subject to.

True or False ?

[Unitarian101]

In Matthew 27:52 we have the word “sleep” functioning as a SUBSTITUTE for the literal death which humans undergo. So “sleep” in this verse functions to clue us into how the apostle conceived of death. From this verse we can gather that the dead ( just like those who are asleep) are unable to actively influence their surroundings, that is, they are unable to do anything. The dead are in a passive state , a state of inaction. This is diametrically opposite the concept of active, fully conscious , disembodied human spirits residing in heaven. Also, as pointed out earlier, during sleep our spirits do not literally leave our bodies, so the same must be true of literal death. Otherwise the word which the author used in place of “death” was a massively misleading one indeed.


In James 2:26 the author wants to bring our attention to the fact that faith without works is not efficacious. He is NOT describing actual death nor defining it here. He could have used the word “useless” instead of “dead” and the same point would have been clearly made. Infact that he uses the word “dead” as a stand in for words like useless/broken etc. goes against the notion of fully conscious, active , fully functioning, non-destructible disembodied spirits .

[Unitarian101]

One more thing I want readers to keep in mind is that I have carelessly used the English words “soul” and “spirit” interchangeably in James 2:26 , which I should not have done. The word used here is πνεῦμα ( spirit) and not ψυχή ( spirit).

[Bill the Cat]

No, thatÂ’s profound biblical eisegesis.

No it really is not. Trying to make it say whatever it is that you are trying to say is the definition of eisegesis.

You really do not see it ? Perhaps a T/F question would cause you to see:

Oh, THIS should be fun...

Question: “The body is ‘dead’ (ie. inoperable/broken) without the spirit “ is saying something about the condition of the body without a soul,

True

and not necessarily defining the literal death which God spoke about in Genesis 2:17 which every human being is subject to.

True or False ?

False

In Matthew 27:52 we have the word “sleep” functioning as a SUBSTITUTE for the literal death which humans undergo. So “sleep” in this verse functions to clue us into how the apostle conceived of death. From this verse we can gather that the dead ( just like those who are asleep) are unable to actively influence their surroundings, that is, they are unable to do anything. The dead are in a passive state , a state of inaction. This is diametrically opposite the concept of active, fully conscious , disembodied human spirits residing in heaven. Also, as pointed out earlier, during sleep our spirits do not literally leave our bodies, so the same must be true of literal death. Otherwise the word which the author used in place of “death” was a massively misleading one indeed.

Just plain wow... The word "sleep" refers to the temporary repose our bodies take before getting re-joined with our spirits and resurrected. Soul sleep is simply unbiblical.

In James 2:26 the author wants to bring our attention to the fact that faith without works is not efficacious. He is NOT describing actual death nor defining it here.

He actually is. He is explaining that without a spirit, the body dies and likens that to faith being dead without works to show it.

He could have used the word “useless” instead of “dead” and the same point would have been clearly made. Infact that he uses the word “dead” as a stand in for words like useless/broken etc. goes against the notion of fully conscious, active , fully functioning, non-destructible disembodied spirits .

No it doesn't. Like works that "animate" our faith, our spirits "animate" our bodies. Without the former, in both cases, the latter are dead husks without life.

[Sparko]

Unitarian101, You can edit your posts up to 45 minutes after making them so you don't have to keep deleting them when you make a mistake and starting over.

[Unitarian101]

No it really is not. Trying to make it say whatever it is that you are trying to say is the definition of eisegesis.



Oh, THIS should be fun...




True



False



Just plain wow... The word "sleep" refers to the temporary repose our bodies take before getting re-joined with our spirits and resurrected. Soul sleep is simply unbiblical.



He actually is. He is explaining that without a spirit, the body dies and likens that to faith being dead without works to show it.



No it doesn't. Like works that "animate" our faith, our spirits "animate" our bodies. Without the former, in both cases, the latter are dead husks without life.

If “death” is defined as the separation of the spirit from the body please explain how the author could have used it in context to the body and the spirit in James 2:26 ? In other words, how does the following make sense:

“The body without the spirit is The SPIRIT SEPARATED From The BODY “

Your position is factually and contextually nonsensical. The biblical definition of death at James 2:26 is “powerless/inoperative,” NOT “a separation of the spirit from the body.”

[Unitarian101]

The following resource is on the right track with bold below:

James drives the point home here with one last illustration. James makes a clever word-play here, similar to one Jesus uses in John chapter 3. James claims that a faith without works is just as dead as a body without pneumatos. This Greek term can mean "wind," which is a euphemism for breathing, or it can mean "spirit," or even capital-S-"Spirit," meaning the Holy Spirit. The wordplay is key to seeing how serious James is about the implications of this teaching. A body without breath is dead. A person without "the Spirit" is spiritually dead. James ties together a lack of breath, a lack of spirit, and the presence of death with the concept of a works-less faith.

Bodies which don't breathe are dead. In the same way a so-called-"faith"—whether in the form of religion, or family identity, or intellectual knowledge—that is not accompanied by good works is not a living thing. It's dead. The spiritual implications are clear; works-less faith is not saving faith.

The apostle is saying that a body which is not breathing is "dead" (that is, it is broken, it is in a state of decay). He is not speaking about a separation of a person's "spirit" from their body. Such a notion is no where articulated (or even hinted at) in scripture. It is a non-Hebrew concept rooted in the doctrine of reincarnation.

[Darfius]

The following resource is on the right track with bold below:




The apostle is saying that a body which is not breathing is "dead" (that is, it is broken, it is in a state of decay). He is not speaking about a separation of a person's "spirit" from their body. Such a notion is no where articulated (or even hinted at) in scripture. It is a non-Hebrew concept rooted in the doctrine of reincarnation.

Scripture Verse: Eccl 12:6

Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,
7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: 2 Corinthians 5

5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

© Copyright Original Source

You're not only wrong again, you're spectacularly wrong.

[Unitarian101]

Scripture Verse: Eccl 12:6

Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,
7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: 2 Corinthians 5

5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

© Copyright Original Source

You're not only wrong again, you're spectacularly wrong.

Explain how either of those citations show that death is defined as the separation of the human spirit from the same human body ?

[Unitarian101]

Infact in Eccl. 12:6 it is clear that the reference to the “Spirit” hints back to Genesis 2:7, to the “Breath of Life” from God and not to individual, disembodied human spirits :



Genesis 2:7

7 Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

It is profound biblical eisegesis to read the above as saying that God breathed an active, intelligent, fully functioning disembodied spirit whom he called Adam into a lifeless body . And even worse eisegesis to extrapolate from that verse that this same (essentially pre-existing spirit!) once again becomes disembodied at “death” and leaves to be with God yet again.

[Bill the Cat]

If “death” is defined as the separation of the spirit from the body please explain how the author could have used it in context to the body and the spirit in James 2:26 ?

Seriously? You've resorted to "why didn't the author write it this way?" You've lost, sir.

In other words, how does the following make sense:

“The body without the spirit is The SPIRIT SEPARATED From The BODY “

It does make sense. A corpse laying dead In a coffin is dead because the spirit is separated from it.

Your position is factually and contextually nonsensical. The biblical definition of death at James 2:26 is “powerless/inoperative,” NOT “a separation of the spirit from the body.”

No it isn't. The term "without" makes your position of "soul sleep" completely false. If the spirit remans with the "powerless/inoperative" body, the body isn't "without" the spirit. If I am "without" money, that doesn't mean I actually have money on me, but it isn't effective. Again, sir, you lose.

The following resource is on the right track with bold below:




The apostle is saying that a body which is not breathing is "dead" (that is, it is broken, it is in a state of decay). He is not speaking about a separation of a person's "spirit" from their body.

Yes he is. That's what Jews believed happen at death. The spirit separates from the body. Some Jews believe it goes to sheol, tartarus, or hades. Others believe it goes to God, Abraham's bosom, or paradise.

Such a notion is no where articulated (or even hinted at) in scripture.

Yes it is. Or, for example, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus makes no sense.

It is a non-Hebrew concept rooted in the doctrine of reincarnation.

You know nothing of Hebrew concepts. Soul sleep is a late invention of the middle ages.

[Unitarian101]

Seriously? You've resorted to "why didn't the author write it this way?" You've lost, sir.




It does make sense. A corpse laying dead In a coffin is dead because the spirit is separated from it.



No it isn't. The term "without" makes your position of "soul sleep" completely false. If the spirit remans with the "powerless/inoperative" body, the body isn't "without" the spirit. If I am "without" money, that doesn't mean I actually have money on me, but it isn't effective. Again, sir, you lose.



Yes he is. That's what Jews believed happen at death. The spirit separates from the body. Some Jews believe it goes to sheol, tartarus, or hades. Others believe it goes to God, Abraham's bosom, or paradise.



Yes it is. Or, for example, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus makes no sense.



You know nothing of Hebrew concepts. Soul sleep is a late invention of the middle ages.

Look at the following verse:


Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

The “breath of life” mentioned above is that which separates from the body at “death” and returns to God. True or False ?

[Unitarian101]

By the way, I don’t think you understood why the following statement is nonsensical if we substitute the word “dead” for the words “The SPIRIT SEPARATED From The BODY”:

“The body without the spirit is dead.”

The statement above is saying something about the body . In other words it is saying that the BODY is “dead “ (if X happens). Do you agree ?

[Bill the Cat]

Look at the following verse:


Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

The “breath of life” mentioned above is that which separates from the body at “death” and returns to God. True or False ?

In a way, yes. The "breath of life" from God is what creates our spirits. Without it, we would not have a spirit, and without it, our spirit can not stay with our bodies.

By the way, I don’t think you understood why the following statement is nonsensical if we substitute the word “dead” for the words “The SPIRIT SEPARATED From The BODY”:

“The body without the spirit is dead.”

The statement above is saying something about the body . In other words it is saying that the BODY is “dead “ (if X happens). Do you agree ?

Yes. That is how it happens.