Announcement

Collapse

Unorthodox Theology 201 Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.

The second purpose will be for threads on subjects, which although the thread starter has no issue with the above doctrines, the subject matter is so very outside the bounds of normative Christian doctrine totally within the leadership's discretion that it is placed here. In so doing, no judgment or offense is intended to be placed on the belief of said person in the above-doctrines. In this case "unorthodox" is used in a much looser sense of "outside the norms" - Examples of such threads would be pro-polygamy, pro-drug use, proponents of gay Christian churches, proponents of abortion.

The third purpose is for persons who wish to have input from any and all who would claim the title of Christian even on subjects that would be considered "orthodox."

The philosophy behind this area was to recognize that there are persons who would identify themselves as Christian and thus seem out of place in the Comparative Religions Forum, but yet in keeping with our committment here to certain basic core Christian doctrines. Also, it allows threads to be started by those who would want to still be identified as Christian with a particular belief that while not denying an essential is of such a nature that the discussion on that issue belongs in this section or for threads by persons who wish such a non-restricted discussion.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    In a way, yes. The "breath of life" from God is what creates our spirits. Without it, we would not have a spirit, and without it, our spirit can not stay with our bodies.



    Yes. That is how it happens.
    (1) So the soul of Adam was already a thinking, feeling , rational entity before it entered the body of Adam. In other words it pre-existed his body. True or False ?

    (2) Do you recognize that “dead” in James 2:26 is functioning as an adjective ?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
      (1) So the soul of Adam was already a thinking, feeling , rational entity before it entered the body of Adam. In other words it pre-existed his body. True or False ?

      (2) Do you recognize that “dead” in James 2:26 is functioning as an adjective ?
      False
      Yes
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        False
        Yes
        (1) False

        This same “breath of life” which God gave to Adam ( which you agree is NOT a thinking, feeling , rational entity) is said to leave the body and return to God in ECC. 12:7 —

        “Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us. “

        So how can you argue that this same “breath of life” is a thinking, feeling , rational entity on the one hand ( after it leaves the body) and deny it is so ( before it enters the body) on the other ?

        (2) True

        Do you agree that the text of James 2:26 is NOT saying “the body without the soul is DEATH” ?

        In other words, the sentence is not defining death itself but saying that the BODY without X is “dead” ?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
          (1) False

          This same “breath of life” which God gave to Adam ( which you agree is NOT a thinking, feeling , rational entity) is said to leave the body and return to God in ECC. 12:7 —

          “Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us. “

          So how can you argue that this same “breath of life” is a thinking, feeling , rational entity on the one hand ( after it leaves the body) and deny it is so ( before it enters the body) on the other ?

          (2) True

          Do you agree that the text of James 2:26 is NOT saying “the body without the soul is DEATH” ?

          In other words, the sentence is not defining death itself but saying that the BODY without X is “dead” ?
          Who says the soul exists before God puts it into the body? Personally I believe the soul comes into existence at the moment of conception.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
            (1) False

            This same “breath of life” which God gave to Adam ( which you agree is NOT a thinking, feeling , rational entity) is said to leave the body and return to God in ECC. 12:7 —

            “Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us. “

            So how can you argue that this same “breath of life” is a thinking, feeling , rational entity on the one hand ( after it leaves the body) and deny it is so ( before it enters the body) on the other ?
            Because that's not what you asked. You said "In other words it pre-existed his body", which I said was false. God's breath in our nostrils is what becomes our spirit. It's not literal breathing, because God's spirit had no body and no lungs.

            (2) True

            Do you agree that the text of James 2:26 is NOT saying “the body without the soul is DEATH”?
            It is describing a hypothetical unnamed body and says without a spirit, it is just a dead body.

            In other words, the sentence is not defining death itself but saying that the BODY without X is “dead” ?
            That's just stupid. It's using actual real human death as a simile for faith without the accompanying works.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Who says the soul exists before God puts it into the body? Personally I believe the soul comes into existence at the moment of conception.
              And remember, Adam was a special creation that had no mother, human conception, or gestation.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Because that's not what you asked. You said "In other words it pre-existed his body", which I said was false. God's breath in our nostrils is what becomes our spirit. It's not literal breathing, because God's spirit had no body and no lungs.



                It is describing a hypothetical unnamed body and says without a spirit, it is just a dead body.



                That's just stupid. It's using actual real human death as a simile for faith without the accompanying works.
                (1) Genesis 2:7 does NOT say that God’s breath in our nostrils becomes our spirit, but that God breathed into our nostrils the breath of life and the man becomes a living being. So the “living being” = a flesh and blood human after God’s breath is in him. Ecc. 12:7 does not say that this “living being” returns to God but the breath which God put into his nostrils does. This “breath” was NOT a living being before it entered Adam, and it is NOT a living being after it leaves him.


                (2) So by the same token you would have to say that the text is “using actual real human death as a simile for a body without the accompanying spirit.” Think about what you’re doing here.
                Last edited by Unitarian101; 11-29-2018, 08:01 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Who says the soul exists before God puts it into the body? Personally I believe the soul comes into existence at the moment of conception.
                  Is Ecc. 12:7 referring to this “soul” when the text says that it ( he?) returns to God ?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                    (1) Genesis 2:7 does NOT say that God’s breath in our nostrils becomes our spirit, but that God breathed into our nostrils the breath of life and the man becomes a living being.
                    Which the Jews understand as "ensoulment", or spirit birth, as I shared in my first few posts. That you don't believe it isn't my problem.

                    So the “living being” = a flesh and blood human after God’s breath is in him.
                    So, can a "living being" live without a spirit?

                    Ecc. 12:7 does not say that this “living being” returns to God but the breath which God put into his nostrils does. This “breath” was NOT a living being before it entered Adam, and it is NOT a living being after it leaves him.
                    Wrong. The "breath" BECAME the spirit of that man when it entered him. When it left, it was the eternal spirit of that man. There was no spirit in the man that God formed from the dust UNTIL the breath was breathed into him. It was just a formed lump of dust.


                    (2) So by the same token you would have to say that the text is “using actual real human death as a simile for a body without the accompanying spirit.” Think about what you’re doing here.
                    I think you have no clue what a simile is. I'll ask again... is English your primary language?
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                      Is Ecc. 12:7 referring to this “soul” when the text says that it ( he?) returns to God ?
                      It came (was created) from God and returns to God. Doesn't mean it existed before God put it into the body.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        It came (was created) from God and returns to God. Doesn't mean it existed before God put it into the body.
                        Genesis 2:7 does not allow for the "breath of life" to have been created in Adam's body. Rather the text says that God breathed "the breath of life" (something already existing) into the nostrils of the man, which caused the man to become a living being. .

                        Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
                        Last edited by Unitarian101; 11-30-2018, 12:20 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                          Genesis 2:7 does not allow for the "breath of life" to have been created in Adam's body. Rather the text says that God breathed "the breath of life" (something already existing) into the nostrils of the man, which caused the man to become a living being. .
                          uh no it doesn't say anything about the spirit preexisting.

                          OK I am just going to consider you a kook and stop here. Not worth my time.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            Because that's not what you asked. You said "In other words it pre-existed his body", which I said was false. God's breath in our nostrils is what becomes our spirit. It's not literal breathing, because God's spirit had no body and no lungs.
                            That's NOT what the text says. Genesis 2:7 says that God breathed the "breath of life" (something already existing) into the nostrils of the man, after which the man became "a living being." In other words "the breath of life" from God blown in the man's nostrils is what makes a man a living being. Remove "the breath of God" from the man, and he is no longer a living being.


                            It is describing a hypothetical unnamed body and says without a spirit, it is just a dead body.
                            Don't know what you mean by "a spirit," but if you change underlined above to "the breath of life" ( נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים) I would agree. James 2:26 says nothing about a living, thinking, conscious human Spirit exiting from the human body and existing as such outside the human body. It is an allusion to Genesis 2:7, to the body of the man before God breathed the "breath of life" (not a thinking, conscious Spirit being) into Adam's nostrils.


                            That's just stupid. It's using actual real human death as a simile for faith without the accompanying works.
                            I humbly submit that you do not have a correct appreciation of what a simile is. Here's a simple dictionary definition:

                            a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g., as brave as a lion, crazy like a fox ).
                            Perhaps you meant to say "metaphor" ? Though even then your position would be untenable. (I can get into detail why if you like). The difference between a simile and metaphor is that a simile uses words like "like" or "as" to make a comparison whereas a metaphor states the comparison without such words.
                            Last edited by Unitarian101; 11-30-2018, 01:09 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              uh no it doesn't say anything about the spirit preexisting.

                              OK I am just going to consider you a kook and stop here. Not worth my time.
                              Genesis 2:7 speaks of "the breath of life" as existing before God breathed it into Adam's nostrils. If you disagree , then you're severely eisegeting the text .

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                                That's NOT what the text says. Genesis 2:7 says that God breathed the "breath of life" (something already existing) into the nostrils of the man, after which the man became "a living being." In other words "the breath of life" from God blown in the man's nostrils is what makes a man a living being. Remove "the breath of God" from the man, and he is no longer a living being.
                                So, in your view, man has no spirit. Just dust formed into flesh and breathing air. Got it.


                                Don't know what you mean by "a spirit," but if you change underlined above to "the breath of life" ( נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים) I would agree.
                                Too bad you can't have the breath of life without a spirit inhabiting.

                                James 2:26 says nothing about a living, thinking, conscious human Spirit exiting from the human body and existing as such outside the human body.
                                Yes it does.

                                It is an allusion to Genesis 2:7, to the body of the man before God breathed the "breath of life" (not a thinking, conscious Spirit being) into Adam's nostrils.
                                I know. It was that breath of life that created Adam's spirit. And when that breath stopped, his spirit no longer there to keep him animated and his lungs respirating.


                                I humbly submit that you do not have a correct appreciation of what a simile is. Here's a simple dictionary definition:
                                Ok. Metaphor then.



                                Perhaps you meant to say "metaphor" ?
                                Yes. My mistake there.

                                Though even then your position would be untenable.
                                No it isn't.

                                (I can get into detail why if you like). The difference between a simile and metaphor is that a simile uses words like "like" or "as" to make a comparison whereas a metaphor states the comparison without such words.
                                The premise remains. James uses a metaphor of human death of the spirit leaving the body, as per the Jewish understanding, to compare metaphorically to faith that lacks works.
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X