Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

[Unitarian101]

It says what I mean right there in my post.

You wrote that Jesus "died physically for us" and also that "Jesus died spiritually for us," I'm saying that your qualifications "physically" and "spiritually" are additions into the biblical text. The text simply says that Jesus "died for us":

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

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Habbakuk 1:12 says that God will not die. Jesus died. So Jesus is not the same God that Habakkuk worshiped . Address.

[Jeff]

Thanks. Am I allowed to agree with orthodox views in Christian only subgroups? ...or are they off limits for me altogether?

[Sparko]

Ok, now that I've changed my label to "unorthodox Christian", I should be unhindered in expressing my unorthodox faith. As I was saying, there are no commands from above that require us to bow to the Trinitarian notions. Wouldn't at all worry about what they assert as binding. They haven't a clue what they are speaking about... as they imply when they say that they really can't fully comprehend what they are asserting.

If the God you believe in isn't the real God, then are you really saved? Do you believe Jesus is The Son? Do you believe the Son is fully God? If not what do you believe the Son is? a creation? an angel? If you believe the Son, who saves you is a mere creation when in fact he is fully God, are you saved? You believe in a false version of God.

So yes, it is important.


There are no commands to believe in a trinity, but if God is a trinity as the bible teaches in various ways, then it is important to believe God is a trinity.

[Sparko]

You wrote that Jesus "died physically for us" and also that "Jesus died spiritually for us," I'm saying that your qualifications "physically" and "spiritually" are additions into the biblical text. The text simply says that Jesus "died for us":



-----

Habbakuk 1:12 says that God will not die. Jesus died. So Jesus is not the same God that Habakkuk worshiped . Address.

Jesus was fully man and fully God the Son. He died physically on the cross. He was separated from the Father temporarily until his ascension.

[Sparko]

Thanks. Am I allowed to agree with orthodox views in Christian only subgroups? ...or are they off limits for me altogether?

If you want to post in a Christian only area, you need to seek approval from the thread starter first, and then let a moderator know that you have permission. You can't then start arguing unorthodox views in the thread but you can post there.

[Cerebrum123]

Thanks. Am I allowed to agree with orthodox views in Christian only subgroups? ...or are they off limits for me altogether?

You have to ask for permission first, but if you are agreeing with orthodox views you would likely* be allowed in such a discussion. Here is a link to the rules for Christianity 201.

"This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first."

*As long as I'm understanding the rules properly. You might try asking mossrose, Sparko, or One Bad Pig as they are owners of the site. Raphael is too, but I haven't seen him on in a while.

[Bill the Cat]

Habbakuk 1:12 says that God will not die. Jesus died. So Jesus is not the same God that Habakkuk worshiped . Address.

The majority of Hebrew manuscripts read "we will not die." The Septuagint (the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures often cited in the New Testament and used by early Christians) also has "we will not die." The Latin Vulgate holds this reading as well. The copy of Habakkuk among the Dead Sea Scrolls has a gap at this phrase,1 however the scrolls also include a commentary on Habakkuk, the contents of which clearly indicate that the text read "we will not die."

It is important to note that, while Jesus is 100% God, He does not exhaust all that God is. The Father did not become incarnate in Christ. Neither did the Holy Spirit. Only the eternal Son, the uncreated Word, the second person of the Trinity took on flesh.
"Although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross," (Philippians 2:6-8).
God the Son took on a human life and so could die a human death, but His death represents the death of that human life, not the death of the everlasting nature of God. The Father did not die. The Spirit did not die. Indeed, the eternal, divine nature of the Word did not die. The humanity He took upon Himself died. He came in flesh, and in that flesh He died and rose again, but that speaks of the initial mortality of the human nature He took on. It does not make finite the infinite and immortal divine nature of God.

https://carm.org/does-habakkuk-1-12-...uld-not-be-god

[Unitarian101]

The majority of Hebrew manuscripts read "we will not die." The Septuagint (the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures often cited in the New Testament and used by early Christians) also has "we will not die." The Latin Vulgate holds this reading as well. The copy of Habakkuk among the Dead Sea Scrolls has a gap at this phrase,1 however the scrolls also include a commentary on Habakkuk, the contents of which clearly indicate that the text read "we will not die."

It is important to note that, while Jesus is 100% God, He does not exhaust all that God is. The Father did not become incarnate in Christ. Neither did the Holy Spirit. Only the eternal Son, the uncreated Word, the second person of the Trinity took on flesh.
"Although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross," (Philippians 2:6-8).
God the Son took on a human life and so could die a human death, but His death represents the death of that human life, not the death of the everlasting nature of God. The Father did not die. The Spirit did not die. Indeed, the eternal, divine nature of the Word did not die. The humanity He took upon Himself died. He came in flesh, and in that flesh He died and rose again, but that speaks of the initial mortality of the human nature He took on. It does not make finite the infinite and immortal divine nature of God.

https://carm.org/does-habakkuk-1-12-...uld-not-be-god

Do you reject the reading "you shall not die" at Habakkuk 1:12 as being genuine ?

[Bill the Cat]

Do you reject the reading "you shall not die" at Habakkuk 1:12 as being genuine ?

Yes.

[Jeff]

Hello Sparko. Thanks for the info on posting.

It has been revealed to me that Yeshua / Jesus is "...the Christ, Son of the Living God...". Same as the Father revealed to Peter. I will not add or subtract. Neither will I go beyond. As Son... a [man] in whom the fullness of God (Word of the Father, Spirit of Truth) dwelt bodily. And so my Lord and God spoke saying"...I and my Father are One...". The Son, a man... the Word, invisible God in Him by nature. Makes my Lord the expressed image of the invisible God, his Father and ours. The Word in the beginning was spoken "...let us make [man] in our image and in our likeness...". Therefore God's image and likeness is [man]... Yeshua / Jesus, the firstborn of all creation, and then those whom God, by the Spirit of Truth, would conform the image of Christ... Church.

This truth is revealed plainly in the creation account from "the beginning" to the completion of the First Day... altogether, the operating system of the Ancient of Days. Consider...

The order in which things appear "void and empty":
1)darkness covering deep.
2)spirit moving upon waters.
Note that these do not exist by Word. Nowhere in all of scripture will you find "...let there be darkness covering the face of the deep and let there be spirit moving upon the face of the waters...". What does this mean? ...and how did these things come be? I know, but will leave you to ponder it.

In short, however, if you perceive the following you will see this: A speaker (Father), his Word, and a hearer (Son).

The order of things after God intervenes signified by (parenthesis):
1) (Word) of Speaker...let there be Light.
2) (Light shining in) darkness covering deep.
3) spirit moving upon waters.
Now we can see what John 1 is portraying. In the beginning was the Word... and light shining in darkness, which is the First Day (Day Star, Son of Dawn). What does this mean? ...and what is it we are witnessing here? I know, but will leave you to ponder it.

Enough here for a foundation for discussion.

Lastly. You admit there is no command from above yet men call me to account. On what basis will God rule in their favor? God will rule in this matter to be sure... but in whose favor?

[Sparko]

Hello Sparko. Thanks for the info on posting.

It has been revealed to me that Yeshua / Jesus is "...the Christ, Son of the Living God...". Same as the Father revealed to Peter. I will not add or subtract. Neither will I go beyond. As Son... a [man] in whom the fullness of God (Word of the Father, Spirit of Truth) dwelt bodily. And so my Lord and God spoke saying"...I and my Father are One...". The Son, a man... the Word, invisible God in Him by nature. Makes my Lord the expressed image of the invisible God, his Father and ours. The Word in the beginning was spoken "...let us make [man] in our image and in our likeness...". Therefore God's image and likeness is [man]... Yeshua / Jesus, the firstborn of all creation, and then those whom God, by the Spirit of Truth, would conform the image of Christ... Church.

This truth is revealed plainly in the creation account from "the beginning" to the completion of the First Day... altogether, the operating system of the Ancient of Days. Consider...

The order in which things appear "void and empty":
1)darkness covering deep.
2)spirit moving upon waters.
Note that these do not exist by Word. Nowhere in all of scripture will you find "...let there be darkness covering the face of the deep and let there be spirit moving upon the face of the waters...". What does this mean? ...and how did these things come be? I know, but will leave you to ponder it.

In short, however, if you perceive the following you will see this: A speaker (Father), his Word, and a hearer (Son).

The order of things after God intervenes signified by (parenthesis):
1) (Word) of Speaker...let there be Light.
2) (Light shining in) darkness covering deep.
3) spirit moving upon waters.
Now we can see what John 1 is portraying. In the beginning was the Word... and light shining in darkness, which is the First Day (Day Star, Son of Dawn). What does this mean? ...and what is it we are witnessing here? I know, but will leave you to ponder it.

Enough here for a foundation for discussion.

Lastly. You admit there is no command from above yet men call me to account. On what basis will God rule in their favor? God will rule in this matter to be sure... but in whose favor?

That was nearly impossible to follow Jeff. You just strung together a bunch of verse fragments. Just say what you believe the Son is. Was he created or is he uncreated?

As far as God judging based on men calling you to account? He doesn't. He tells US to call men into account. He judges based on himself and his nature.

Let's say you believe the bible is true but you think that God is really some space alien with a lot of powers who decided to create this universe. I can quote verse after verse after you and you will agree with it, but at the core, you think God is just a space alien and Jesus was his literal offspring. Will believing in THAT God save you? I don't think so. What you believe God is is just as important as believing what the bible says. The mormons actually do believe something like that. They think that the universe and matter is always existing as are souls. God used to be the Adam of a previous universe who became God and started this universe and him and his eternal Wife God had spirit babies who they put into bodies and they are us. But they believe the bible is true. So are they saved with what they believe God is? basically just a glorified human being from another planet? They also believe one day they will have their own planets and be Gods.

[Unitarian101]

Yes.

Would you say that there is no clear/indisputable scripture in either the OT or NT which asserts that God does not die ?

[Jeff]

Hi Sparko. Complaint. I have spent no less than 3 hrs of my time tonight, between breaks and at home, responding to your post. Twice everything I have written has been lost due to an expired token. WTH!!! I am wasting time and breath. If there's a puppet master regulating speech here tell me now. The time is short and I am old. So to condense all that I have written which has been lost hear this: Yeshua / Jesus is a man in whom his Father dwelt bodily. There is a glorified MAN seated at the right hand of God who is given dominion over all things... as was declared from the beginning. And when He shall shortly come I will be like Him for I shall see Him as He is! Because he is a man like me who has been glorified... what I am destined to become. If my Lord is as you say I could never relate because I have never been God and I never will be. Yet I am Christ in me, the hope of glory. Who is the Church of the Living God? I AM... and He has said to me, to whom the Word of God has come "...have I not said that you are Gods..."? Therefore, I speak of those things that be not as though they were... just as I see my Father doing! And so they will be.

Ya know Sparko... if you listen really close to thunder, it does utter it's voice.

[Cerebrum123]

Hi Sparko. Complaint. I have spent no less than 3 hrs of my time tonight, between breaks and at home, responding to your post. Twice everything I have written has been lost due to an expired token. WTH!!! I am wasting time and breath. If there's a puppet master regulating speech here tell me now. The time is short and I am old. So to condense all that I have written which has been lost hear this: Yeshua / Jesus is a man in whom his Father dwelt bodily. There is a glorified MAN seated at the right hand of God who is given dominion over all things... as was declared from the beginning. And when He shall shortly come I will be like Him for I shall see Him as He is! Because he is a man like me who has been glorified... what I am destined to become. If my Lord is as you say I could never relate because I have never been God and I never will be. Yet I am Christ in me, the hope of glory. Who is the Church of the Living God? I AM... and He has said to me, to whom the Word of God has come "...have I not said that you are Gods..."? Therefore, I speak of those things that be not as though they were... just as I see my Father doing! And so they will be.

Ya know Sparko... if you listen really close to thunder, it does utter it's voice.

The expired token thing happens if you wait too long to actually hit the post quick reply button. To avoid this just copy the entire post, and then paste it into a refreshed page with a new quick reply window. TWeb has also had some issues with replies "hanging". Forcing the page to refresh after hitting post quick reply usually fixes it.

[Sparko]

Hi Sparko. Complaint. I have spent no less than 3 hrs of my time tonight, between breaks and at home, responding to your post. Twice everything I have written has been lost due to an expired token. WTH!!! I am wasting time and breath. If there's a puppet master regulating speech here tell me now. The time is short and I am old. So to condense all that I have written which has been lost hear this: Yeshua / Jesus is a man in whom his Father dwelt bodily. There is a glorified MAN seated at the right hand of God who is given dominion over all things... as was declared from the beginning. And when He shall shortly come I will be like Him for I shall see Him as He is! Because he is a man like me who has been glorified... what I am destined to become. If my Lord is as you say I could never relate because I have never been God and I never will be. Yet I am Christ in me, the hope of glory. Who is the Church of the Living God? I AM... and He has said to me, to whom the Word of God has come "...have I not said that you are Gods..."? Therefore, I speak of those things that be not as though they were... just as I see my Father doing! And so they will be.

Ya know Sparko... if you listen really close to thunder, it does utter it's voice.

I apologize for the problems with the site. We are running an old version that has some glitches in it. Sometimes when you post, it will just sit there "thinking". If you click refresh button on your browser, it usually will show up. It gets posted, but doesn't want to refresh the page. For problems with long posts, I would suggest writing them in notepad or word, then copying and pasting them to the site post, that way you have a copy in case something goes wrong. We have been working on updating the site to a newer version of vbulletin board software but our programmer has been unavailable due to some personal issues.

If the FATHER dwelt in Jesus bodily, then you sound more like a modalist. God the Son dwelt in Jesus. actually was incarnated as Jesus. He took on flesh.