Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

[Bibleuser]

Jesus made the claim that he was man's sole access to God the Father (John 14:6).

That is very true.


No man can approach God directly because of being sinful, thus the medatorship of Jesus to make Christians acceptable by reason of their faith in his shed blood etc..
BU

[Bibleuser]

A lot of time was wasted responding to this heretic with fallacious appeals to authority. No created being could have entered a sinful world through birth as a man and remained completely sinless its entire life. For "all" have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God alone could have done it, which is why He did. Game. Set. Match.

There's also all the times Jesus spoke as and received worship reserved for God, but let's pretend "before Abraham was, I AM" never happened in the name of some clearly pretentious "struggle" with the truth. Those who deny the Son deny the Father and are the spirit of antichrist. The context makes it obvious that "denying" the Son means denying His divinity. Good luck in hell.

A
A faithful human son of God could have and did, Jesus.

B
The "I am" if it were to be taken from the LXX should read "Ho On" as it reads "this will you say to the son's Israel THE BEING I was sent off me toward you.!"
"I am" is introducing himself as "The Being" not as "I am."
You quote is not right.
BU

[Bibleuser]

Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."


Rev. 22:12-13,
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

QUESTION?

As Jehovah God and Jesus Christ have the same title, “First and Last,” applied to them both, does this make them the same person?

As with any scriptural question(s) the answer must be based upon what the Bible has to say as a whole, about this, or any, subject, this we will look at in connection with the above question.


The following from Habakkuk 1:12, highlights one major difference between Jehovah and Jesus:-

HABAKKUK 1:12

”Are you not from long ago, O JEHOVAH? O MY GOD, MY HOLY ONE, YOU DO NOT DIE. O Jehovah, for a judgment you have set it; and, O Rock, for a reproving you have founded it.”-New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

The rendering of Habakkuk 1:12 the N.W.T. has been challenged as to it’s accuracy on its rendering on this verse. Is their any other additional substantiating material on this translation issue to support the N.W.T.? Yes, as the following will show!

An interesting marginal note appears in the ‘Common Bible’, KJV text on page 1267, which reads thus:-
“12 . . . we shall not die. This in one of the eighteen emendations of the Sopherim (see Ap. 33), which they say they made because it was considered offensive to say this of Jehovah; hence the one word of the primitive text “who diest not” was changed to “who die not” (rendered in A.V., R.V. and American R.V., notice “we shall not die”). This is the only one of eighteen emendations which the R.V. and American R.V. notice and speak of it in the margin as “an ancient Jewish tradition”, whereas a list of such emendations is given in the Massorah. The change from the second person to the first did more that avoid the supposed irreverent expression; it transferred to mortal men the truth which, apart from resurrection, pertains to God alone, “Who only hath immortality” (1 Tim. 6, 16.)”

A New Commentary of Holy Scripture including the Apocrypha by S.P.C.K. page 595 reads:-
“12a The note of interrogation should be placed at Lord. Instead of we shall not die (an expression of hope that the nation will not finally perish), the original text, according to Jewish tradition, was thou diest not (altered through motives of reverence).”

On this verse Peak’s Commentary on the Bible page 566 states :-
“12. Read probably “Yahweh, my Holy God. That diest not ?” (cf. mg.).”

Various Bible translation supporting the rendering in the N.W.T. at Habakkuk 1:12, theses are as follows, only the appropriate phase in the verse if copied:-
“Immortal”-‘The Catholic Study Bible’, New American Bible
“You will not die”-‘The Bible in Living English’, S.T. Byington
“You never die” ftn. “Heb. “we,” a change made by a pious scribe.””-‘TANAKH’ by The Jewish Publication Society.
“Who never dies”-The Jerusalem Bible & The New Jerusalem Bible
“holy and eternal”-The Good News Bible (T.E.V)
“Who never dies”-‘Holy Bible’ (Easy-to-read Version) by World Bible Translation Center Fort Worth, Texas
“The immortal”-‘The New English Bible’
“Who is immortal”-‘The Revised New English Bible’
“You who are eternal”-‘Holy Bible’, New Living Translation by Tyndale
“Thou diest not”-Moffatt
“You who are eternal”-‘The Way’, The Catholic Living Bible
“For you there is no death”-‘The Bible in Basic English’ by Cambridge
“You shall not die”-New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition
“You shall not die”-New Revised Standard Version, Anglicized Edition
“You shall not die”-New Revised Standard Version
“You who are eternal”-‘Holy Bible’ Living Bible Edition
“Thou diest not”-‘An American Translation’ by E.J. Goodspeed
“Thou diest not”-‘The Modern Reader’s Bible’ by R.G. Moulton
“No moriremos”-‘La Biblia’ Madrid 1905

THE ABOVE SHOWS THAT ALMIGHTY GOD, JEHOVAH CANNOT DIE, WHEREAS JESUS CHRIST DID DIE.

THIS SHOWS A CLEAR DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE FATHER, JEHOVAH AND HIS SON, JESUS, AS JESUS DID DIE!!!
BU

[Darfius]

A
A faithful human son of God could have and did, Jesus.

Idiotic. A "faithful" 8 year old is still a child and will occasionally be disobedient in a sinful world until he "learns" better.

B
The "I am" if it were to be taken from the LXX should read "Ho On" as it reads "this will you say to the son's Israel THE BEING I was sent off me toward you.!"
"I am" is introducing himself as "The Being" not as "I am."
You quote is not right.
BU

Idiotic. We're all beings. Calling Himself "the being" would not differentiate Himself from anyone or anything else. He called Himself "I AM" because He is the only self-existent one. Arguments over the name aside, Jesus clearly said that He existed before Abraham. Stop being dumb.

[tabibito]

The Bible answers:-
Exodus 33:20
"But he added: “You cannot see my face, for NO MAN man can see me and live.”

As God said this it must be true.

So Abraham, Moses, etc., etc, could not have seen GOD.
BU

So according to your analysis, certain passages of the Bible are incorrect. Specifically, those which declare that men saw God and yet lived. Of course, if the Father was speaking to Moses in that passage, there would be no conflict with other passages which might be referring to the Son or to the Holy Spirit.

[tabibito]

Idiotic. A "faithful" 8 year old is still a child and will occasionally be disobedient in a sinful world until he "learns" better.



Idiotic. We're all beings. Calling Himself "the being" would not differentiate Himself from anyone or anything else. He called Himself "I AM" because He is the only self-existent one. Arguments over the name aside, Jesus clearly said that He existed before Abraham. Stop being dumb.

The Koine Greek translation of that passages shows εγω ειμι "I am" ο ων "the being/living-one" ... tell them that ο ων (not εγω ειμι) has sent you. Both Paul and Judas Iscariot use the term εγω ειμι, and neither was claiming to be God, insofar as I can tell. εγω ειμι is the standard Koine translation of the Hebrew, aniki which in turn simply means "I," with "am" added because a verb is needed in Koine Greek.

[tabibito]

True some of many roles.
As a Mediator he acts as a go-between between for Christians and God, thus is not God but acting out his role as The Lamb of God and also as High Priest of God. God cannot be his own Mediator or High Priest, the are a servants role for God.
BU

Ah yes ... I neglected to mention that he took on the position of a servant in addition to all the rest.

[Bibleuser]

The Koine Greek translation of that passages shows εγω ειμι "I am" ο ων "the being/living-one" ... tell them that ο ων (not εγω ειμι) has sent you. Both Paul and Judas Iscariot use the term εγω ειμι, and neither was claiming to be God, insofar as I can tell. εγω ειμι is the standard Koine translation of the Hebrew, aniki which in turn simply means "I," with "am" added because a verb is needed in Koine Greek.

The LXX reads "I am The Being" not I am the I am.

John should have penned, if quoting from the LXX, "The Being."

It matters not what is "standard" it matters what the Text reads.
BU

[Bibleuser]

Ah yes ... I neglected to mention that he took on the position of a servant in addition to all the rest.

God is no servant, he is to be served, like Jesus did, as you say.
BU

[37818]

The Bible answers:-
Exodus 33:20
"But he added: “You cannot see my face, for NO MAN man can see me and live.”

As God said this it must be true.

So Abraham, Moses, etc., etc, could not have seen GOD.
BU

That is not the disagreement. ". . . No man hath seen God at any time: . . ." (John 1:18).

The question is, if Jehovah is God, how was He seen? ". . . And Jehovah appeared unto Abram, and said, . . . " -- Genesis 12:7. ". . . mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts. . . ." -- Isaiah 6:5.

[Sparko]

God is no servant, he is to be served, like Jesus did, as you say.
BU

God said he was the servant.

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. (Isaiah 43:10).

[One Bad Pig]

The Koine Greek translation of that passages shows εγω ειμι "I am" ο ων "the being/living-one" ... tell them that ο ων (not εγω ειμι) has sent you. Both Paul and Judas Iscariot use the term εγω ειμι, and neither was claiming to be God, insofar as I can tell. εγω ειμι is the standard Koine translation of the Hebrew, aniki which in turn simply means "I," with "am" added because a verb is needed in Koine Greek.

Not sure why you go to all this trouble, then don't bother to add that how Jesus uses εγω ειμι is not grammatically correct if he is using it in the same sense that Paul, Judas, and normal koine Greek used it. Jesus' usage rather implies that he is outside of time - in other words, God. That is why the Jews wanted to stone him. Any explanation of the passage has to take into account the Jews' response to it.

[37818]

God said he was the servant.

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. (Isaiah 43:10).

Are you really trying to loose your argument? ". . . 'You are My witnesses,' declares the LORD, 'And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me. And understand that I am He.' . . . " -- Isaiah 43:10, NASB. "I am He," being the LORD, that is, Jehovah [Yahweh].

[Bibleuser]

God said he was the servant.

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. (Isaiah 43:10).

Own goal.
BU

[Bibleuser]

That is not the disagreement. ". . . No man hath seen God at any time: . . ." (John 1:18).

The question is, if Jehovah is God, how was He seen? ". . . And Jehovah appeared unto Abram, and said, . . . " -- Genesis 12:7. ". . . mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts. . . ." -- Isaiah 6:5.

Colossians 1:15
. . .He is the image of the invisible God, . . .

1 Timothy 1:17
. . .invisible, the only God, . . .

He is or is not, but not both???
BU