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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    So according to your analysis, certain passages of the Bible are incorrect. Specifically, those which declare that men saw God and yet lived. Of course, if the Father was speaking to Moses in that passage, there would be no conflict with other passages which might be referring to the Son or to the Holy Spirit.
    Example of how God is 'seen' to the Hebrews:-
    Did Moses talk to Jehovah God in person?
    Exodus Ch. 3
    1 “And Moses became a shepherd of the flock of Jeth´ro, the priest of Mid´i·an, whose son-in-law he was. While he was driving the flock to the west side of the wilderness, he came at length to the mountain of the [true] God, to Ho´reb. 2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why, here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was not consumed. 3 At this Moses said: “Let me just turn aside that I may inspect this great phenomenon, as to why the thornbush is not burnt up.” 4 When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.” 5 Then he said: “Do not come near here. Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
    6 And he went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses concealed his face, because he was afraid to look at the [true] God. 7 And Jehovah added: “Unquestionably I have seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their outcry as a result of those who drive them to work; because I well know the pains they suffer. 8 And I am proceeding to go down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a land good and spacious, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the locality of the Ca´naan·ites and the Hit´tites and the Am´or·ites and the Per´iz·zites and the Hi´vites and the Jeb´u·sites. 9 And now, look! the outcry of the sons of Israel has come to me, and I have seen also the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 And now come and let me send you to Phar´aoh, and you bring my people the sons of Israel out of Egypt.”
    11 However, Moses said to the [true] God: “Who am I that I should go to Phar´aoh and that I have to bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?” 12 To this he said: “Because I shall prove to be with you, and this is the sign for you that it is I who have sent you: After you have brought the people out of Egypt, YOU people will serve the [true] God on this mountain.”

    ACTS Ch. 7
    30 “And when forty years were fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Si´nai an angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush. 31 Now when Moses saw it he marveled at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah’s voice came, 32 ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’ Seized with trembling, Moses did not dare to investigate further.
    BU

    Comment


    • I see you're still being stupid, BU. How could an invisible God communicate with us without using images? Clearly any form His communication takes makes Him visible after a fashion. It just so happens that His only begotten Son is His perfect image. The Son is the infinite made finite. The only possible bridge between the infinite and the finite. Ya heard?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
        Own goal.
        BU
        Sadly, I agree. Sparko badly misread that passage.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
          Example of how God is 'seen' to the Hebrews:-
          Did Moses talk to Jehovah God in person?
          Exodus Ch. 3
          1 “And Moses became a shepherd of the flock of Jeth´ro, the priest of Mid´i·an, whose son-in-law he was. While he was driving the flock to the west side of the wilderness, he came at length to the mountain of the [true] God, to Ho´reb. 2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why, here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was not consumed. 3 At this Moses said: “Let me just turn aside that I may inspect this great phenomenon, as to why the thornbush is not burnt up.” 4 When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.” 5 Then he said: “Do not come near here. Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
          6 And he went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses concealed his face, because he was afraid to look at the [true] God. 7 And Jehovah added: “Unquestionably I have seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their outcry as a result of those who drive them to work; because I well know the pains they suffer. 8 And I am proceeding to go down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a land good and spacious, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the locality of the Ca´naan·ites and the Hit´tites and the Am´or·ites and the Per´iz·zites and the Hi´vites and the Jeb´u·sites. 9 And now, look! the outcry of the sons of Israel has come to me, and I have seen also the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 And now come and let me send you to Phar´aoh, and you bring my people the sons of Israel out of Egypt.”
          11 However, Moses said to the [true] God: “Who am I that I should go to Phar´aoh and that I have to bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?” 12 To this he said: “Because I shall prove to be with you, and this is the sign for you that it is I who have sent you: After you have brought the people out of Egypt, YOU people will serve the [true] God on this mountain.”

          ACTS Ch. 7
          30 “And when forty years were fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Si´nai an angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush. 31 Now when Moses saw it he marveled at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah’s voice came, 32 ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’ Seized with trembling, Moses did not dare to investigate further.
          BU
          Miiiy my. Only one event of contact between God and Moses cited. and only the first one at that, nor is it stated that Moses saw God on that occasion.

          Exodus 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

          Of course it would be possible to twist away from the next two if it wasn't for the passage above.

          Genesis 32: 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.7 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.8 29 And Jacob asked [him], and said, Tell [me], I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore [is] it [that] thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

          Judges 13: 21But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he [was] an angel of the LORD. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. 23 But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these [things], nor would as at this time have told us [such things] as these.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Not sure why you go to all this trouble, then don't bother to add that how Jesus uses εγω ειμι is not grammatically correct if he is using it in the same sense that Paul, Judas, and normal koine Greek used it. Jesus' usage rather implies that he is outside of time - in other words, God. That is why the Jews wanted to stone him. Any explanation of the passage has to take into account the Jews' response to it.
            Inquisitors: "Are you the son of God?" Jesus "I am." That one at least is grammatically correct as a simple answer to the question. Is there another passage where your claim can be verified? However, the LXX does note that the name of God (in Koine Greek) is ο ων - that is the name Moses instructed to use.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
              I see you're still being stupid, BU. How could an invisible God communicate with us without using images? Clearly any form His communication takes makes Him visible after a fashion. It just so happens that His only begotten Son is His perfect image. The Son is the infinite made finite. The only possible bridge between the infinite and the finite. Ya heard?
              Agreed - Jesus claims to have seen the Father (and according to BU, Jesus was no more than a man). Then BU cites John as saying "no man has seen God." (speaking of "own goals"). Old Testament records show that "the angel of the Lord" is not invisible, and identify (at least in some instances of his presence) the angel of the Lord as God.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Inquisitors: "Are you the son of God?" Jesus "I am." That one at least is grammatically correct as a simple answer to the question. Is there another passage where your claim can be verified? However, the LXX does note that the name of God (in Koine Greek) is ο ων - that is the name Moses instructed to use.
                John 8:58, if memory serves. Though I'll note that, even in your case, the powers that be adjudged blasphemy.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  John 8:58, if memory serves. Though I'll note that, even in your case, the powers that be adjudged blasphemy.
                  Yup - that is borne out and explained when the Jews took Jesus before Pilate
                  The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

                  "I am since before Abraham was." or more literally "before Abraham came to be, I am"

                  Seems to me that it is a reasonably standard use of Koine grammar, though kind of clunky in English.

                  ελεγεν οτι εγω ειμι - He was saying "I am" or He was saying that I am Jesus wasn't making the claim though (John 9:9)

                  Do we have evidence showing that the claim "ego eimi" is necessarily a claim to be God? None whatever.
                  Last edited by tabibito; 12-21-2017, 12:02 AM.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    Yup - that is borne out and explained when the Jews took Jesus before Pilate
                    The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

                    "I am since before Abraham was." or more literally "before Abraham came to be, I am"

                    Seems to me that it is a reasonably standard use of Koine grammar, though kind of clunky in English.

                    ελεγεν οτι εγω ειμι - He was saying "I am" or He was saying that I am Jesus wasn't making the claim though (John 9:9)

                    Do we have evidence showing that the claim "ego eimi" is necessarily a claim to be God? None whatever.
                    The reaction of his accusers is all the evidence we need. They charged Him with blaspheming.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      The reaction of his accusers is all the evidence we need. They charged Him with blaspheming.
                      The claim to be God is not needed as the foundation for a charge of blasphemy: as here, Jesus makes no such claim.

                      63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;

                      And it is easy enough to find examples of people who hold to a belief long after it has been repeatedly refuted - or even confuted.

                      Luke 22:70 ειπον δε παντες συ ουν ει ο υιος του θεου ο δε προς αυτους εφη υμεις λεγετε οτι εγω ειμι
                      but they said "are you not the son of God?" but he disclosed to them "you say that I am." 71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                        Colossians 1:15
                        . . .He is the image of the invisible God, . . .

                        1 Timothy 1:17
                        . . .invisible, the only God, . . .

                        He is or is not, but not both???
                        BU
                        If so, then why does the preincarnate only-begotten (John 1:18) being who Abraham and Isaiah saw - do the texts address Him as Jehovah!? ". . . And Jehovah appeared unto Abram, and said, . . . " -- Genesis 12:7. ". . . mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts. . . ." -- Isaiah 6:5.

                        Again, Jesus argued, ". . . That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. . . ." (John 5:23).
                        Last edited by 37818; 12-21-2017, 09:05 AM.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          The claim to be God is not needed as the foundation for a charge of blasphemy: as here, Jesus makes no such claim.

                          63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;

                          And it is easy enough to find examples of people who hold to a belief long after it has been repeatedly refuted - or even confuted.

                          Luke 22:70 ειπον δε παντες συ ουν ει ο υιος του θεου ο δε προς αυτους εφη υμεις λεγετε οτι εγω ειμι
                          but they said "are you not the son of God?" but he disclosed to them "you say that I am." 71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
                          Er,
                          Source: John 5:18

                          Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          Source: John 8:58-9

                          Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          Source: John 10:33

                          The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          The Jews unequivocally understood Jesus to be claiming to be God, and that's what prompted their reactions to his statements. Why do you persist in refusing to see that? I was under the impression you were a Trinitarian.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • I am trinitarian.

                            That doesn't mean that I am willing to accept a highly questionable argument in support of the doctrine.

                            Questionable interpretations used in support of any doctrine only undermine its credibility.

                            With regard to the trinity, there are plenty of solid arguments available.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              I am trinitarian.

                              That doesn't mean that I am willing to accept a highly questionable argument in support of the doctrine.

                              Questionable interpretations used in support of any doctrine only undermine its credibility.

                              With regard to the trinity, there are plenty of solid arguments available.
                              I am dumbfounded that you think this interpretation is questionable.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                Do we have evidence showing that the claim "ego eimi" is necessarily a claim to be God? None whatever.
                                Hmm. . . ". . . I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM [He], ye shall die in your sins. . . ." -- John 8:24.

                                ". . . Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I AM [He], and [that] I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father hath taught Me, I speak these things. . . ." -- John 8:28.

                                ". . . Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad. . . ." -- John 8:56 (Genesis 12:7, ". . . Jehovah appeared unto Abram, . . .").

                                ". . . Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. . . ." -- John 8:58-59.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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