Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

[tabibito]

[QUOTE=One Bad Pig;501410]Er,

Source: John 5:18

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

© Copyright Original Source

Jesus did not use εγω ειμι in that passage - .

Source: John 8:58-9

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

© Copyright Original Source

No reason is stated for the Jews taking up stones. Conjecture alone ties that action to the εγω ειμι statement.

Source: John 10:33

The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

© Copyright Original Source

No εγω ειμι spoken. "I and the Father are one," though εσμεν is the plural form of ειμι, the statement is unequivocal without relying on an interpretation regarding the use of εσμεν.

The Jews unequivocally understood Jesus to be claiming to be God, and that's what prompted their reactions to his statements.

John 10:33 can be used in support of the doctrine of the Trinity, without any recourse to an interpretation of the significance of "I am." Likewise John 5:18, in which "I am" isn't even present. Why rely on an argument that can be so easily denied, even if you don't count it questionable?

[One Bad Pig]

[QUOTE=tabibito;501441]

Er,

Source: John 5:18

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

© Copyright Original Source

Jesus did not use εγω ειμι in that passage - .

Source: John 8:58-9

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

© Copyright Original Source

No reason is stated for the Jews taking up stones. Conjecture alone ties that action to the εγω ειμι statement.

Source: John 10:33

The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

© Copyright Original Source

No εγω ειμι spoken. "I and the Father are one," though εσμεν is the plural form of ειμι, the statement is unequivocal without relying on an interpretation regarding the use of εσμεν.



John 10:33 can be used in support of the doctrine of the Trinity, without any recourse to an interpretation of the significance of "I am." Likewise John 5:18, in which "I am" isn't even present. Why rely on an argument that can be so easily denied, even if you don't count it questionable?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? It's not conjecture - their actions directly follow the statement! I'm well aware that the other passages don't contain "I am" - they support the fact that the Jews believed Jesus asserted that he was God. Sheesh.

[tabibito]

So why make an issue of ego eimi when it only takes reference to the LXX to know that God did not identify himself by that term, but by ho on? Jesus' use of "ego eimi" doesn't reflect a claim to being the different term.

[Bibleuser]

Through John Chs 7 & 8 Jesus is showing the he is the "Christ" & the "light of the world" & the "son of man," NOT that he is God, to the false teacher in Jerusalem.

John 7:25, 26
" . . .Then some of the inhabitants of Jerusalem began to say: “This is the man they are seeking to kill, is it not? 26 And yet see! he is speaking in public, and they say nothing to him. Have the rulers come to know for certain that this is the Christ?" -> Then onward

BU

[One Bad Pig]

So why make an issue of ego eimi when it only takes reference to the LXX to know that God did not identify himself by that term, but by ho on? Jesus' use of "ego eimi" doesn't reflect a claim to being the different term.

You're doing a bit of assuming here. It is obvious from the NT that the LXX was not exclusively in use in first-century Judaea.

[Cerebrum123]

Through John Chs 7 & 8 Jesus is showing the he is the "Christ" & the "light of the world" & the "son of man," NOT that he is God, to the false teacher in Jerusalem.

John 7:25, 26
" . . .Then some of the inhabitants of Jerusalem began to say: “This is the man they are seeking to kill, is it not? 26 And yet see! he is speaking in public, and they say nothing to him. Have the rulers come to know for certain that this is the Christ?" -> Then onward

BU

You do know that Jesus calling Himself the "Son of Man" was a claim to being divine, right? Then in Isaiah you have a description of the Messiah.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[Darfius]

Oh BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Why u ignore me, bruh? Makes me think you have no response. But, that would make you dishonest. Does. not. compute. All...cultists...are...honest. lol

[Bibleuser]

You do know that Jesus calling Himself the "Son of Man" was a claim to being divine, right? Then in Isaiah you have a description of the Messiah.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Right, a "Mighty God", not Almighty God, Right and Everlasting Father to replace Adam and bad Father of humans.
BU

[tabibito]

Right, a "Mighty God", not Almighty God, Right and Everlasting Father to replace Adam and bad Father of humans.
BU

Your problem there: Father is not a term that is ever applied to Jesus, nor to the Holy Spirit. Counsellor is not a term that applies to the Father, nor to Jesus. Prince of Peace is not a term that applies to the Father, nor to the Holy Spirit. Mighty God applies to all, and is used 9 times in the Old Testament; every one of them being a reference to YHVH. The only time "mighty gods" is used, it is a reference to pagan gods, and the word used is addiyr - a word not used with relation to YHVH.

The term mighty God in Isaiah (2 occurrences) is translated from "gibbor" = powerful (9:6, 10:21), with 10:21 unmistakably referring to YHVH. Jeremiah is the only other occurrence of gibbor being translated as Mighty God, and again, is unmistakably referring to YHVH.

Further to that - you need to determine whether Christians are supposed to acknowledge more than one god. If Jesus is a god, but isn't YHVH, you have a problem with the math.

[37818]

Right, a "Mighty God", not Almighty God, Right and Everlasting Father to replace Adam and bad Father of humans.
BU

". . . And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and they that are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again lean upon him that smote them, but shall lean upon Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. A remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. . . ." -- Isaiah 10:20-21.

". . .For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, . . ." -- Deuteronomy 10:17,

". . . Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God, . . ." -- Nehemiah 9:32.

". . . the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his name; . . ." -- Jeremiah 32:18.

[Sparko]

Right, a "Mighty God", not Almighty God, Right and Everlasting Father to replace Adam and bad Father of humans.
BU

How many true Gods are there, BU? Just one. All other Gods are false Gods. Are you saying that Jesus is a false God?

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me" (Isaiah 43:10).


Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."*

[Sparko]

Also the bible says that Jehovah created everything alone, by himself, without help:

Isaiah 44:24 "This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Yet the bible also says the Jesus is the creator, who created everything:

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

So if God created everything himself, alone without help, and Jesus is also the creator who created everything, then the only conclusion is that Jesus is God.

[Darfius]

Scripture Verse: Psalm 71:22

I will praise you with the harp
for your faithfulness, my God;
I will sing praise to you with the lyre,
Holy One of Israel.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Luke 4:33

In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an impure spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, 34 “Go away! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”

© Copyright Original Source

[Bibleuser]

Your problem there: Father is not a term that is ever applied to Jesus, nor to the Holy Spirit. Counsellor is not a term that applies to the Father, nor to Jesus. Prince of Peace is not a term that applies to the Father, nor to the Holy Spirit. Mighty God applies to all, and is used 9 times in the Old Testament; every one of them being a reference to YHVH. The only time "mighty gods" is used, it is a reference to pagan gods, and the word used is addiyr - a word not used with relation to YHVH.

The term mighty God in Isaiah (2 occurrences) is translated from "gibbor" = powerful (9:6, 10:21), with 10:21 unmistakably referring to YHVH. Jeremiah is the only other occurrence of gibbor being translated as Mighty God, and again, is unmistakably referring to YHVH.

Further to that - you need to determine whether Christians are supposed to acknowledge more than one god. If Jesus is a god, but isn't YHVH, you have a problem with the math.

"At Isaiah 9:6 the future Messiah is called, among other titles, "Mighty God"; and "Eternal Father". Does this mean he is Almighty Jehovah and is a father that never began nor will never end? Jehovah is called "the mighty God" at Isaiah 10:21 (NASV) Because of this some have concluded that the Father and the Son are of equal rank; both being called "the mighty God". However others are referred to by the same title; does this make them equal to the Father in rank? This occurrence is found at Ezekiel 32:21. On this passage The New Century Bible, New Series, has this comment: "mighty chiefs is the plural of the Messianic title, "Mighty God" given the child in Isa 9:6 (MT 5) -[Jewish scribal] text, verse 5) "and could be rendered "mighty gods" just as correctly." If the original Hebrew text could call these human warriors 'mighty gods' without elevating them to the position of Jehovah, so could the Son of God be called without such elevation.

The Hebrew for "Mighty God" is "el" (god) "gibbor" (mighty) and has a broad range of meanings. We see in Brown, Driver, and Briggs. A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, page 42*, on "el" "applied to men of might and rank ... mighty heroes". In various translations this phrase is rendered as: "a divine hero" (Moffatt{Mo}); God-Hero" (New American Bible [NAB]; in battle God-like" (New English Bible [NEB]) and "Leaders of Champion" S. T. Byington [By.]).
BU

[Bibleuser]

Scripture Verse: Psalm 71:22

I will praise you with the harp
for your faithfulness, my God;
I will sing praise to you with the lyre,
Holy One of Israel.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Luke 4:33

In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an impure spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, 34 “Go away! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”

© Copyright Original Source

True,"holy one OF God" no problem with that, but not 'God the holy one.'
BU