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Thread: Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

  1. #211
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    John 1:1-2 Literal
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was god. . .
    This one was in the beginning with The God.
    BU

    Technically θεος rendered "god" or "God," the capitalization is a matter of recognizing deity. Jehovah told Isaiah (43:10), ". . . before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."

    And in 2 Corinthians 4:4, ο θεος is rendered "the god."
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  2. #212
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Technically θεος rendered "god" or "God," the capitalization is a matter of recognizing deity. Jehovah told Isaiah (43:10), ". . . before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."

    And in 2 Corinthians 4:4, ο θεος is rendered "the god."
    The Word - One of.
    The God - One of.
    Satan god - One of.
    μονογενὴς θεὸς - One of. A created god by God. So God is the only ONE and can Create a god, but as The Scriptures say he is the "God of god."

    BU
    Last edited by Bibleuser; 01-16-2018 at 12:23 PM.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    "God" is a relative term. This may help
    So is Jesus a God, well yes, related to all things except the Father who is call "Almighty," then he becomes "god."
    BU
    Then why did God say that he is the ONLY God and there is no other? That none were made before him nor after him?

  4. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  5. #214
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    The Word - One of.
    The God - One of.
    Satan god - One of.
    μονογενὴς θεὸς - One of. A created god by God. So God is the only ONE and can Create a god, but as The Scriptures say he is the "God of god."

    BU
    Then according to your explanation God lied when He said to Isaiah (43:10), ". . . before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Well a couple issues here. John 1:1 is to be correctly translate "The Word was God." In the very least, in same way Jehovah had Moses to be "God" to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1). Twice we are told that the Word was "with God," John 1:1 & 1:2. Someone "with" or facing another is not the other. Is that not true? [Do not forget, I do hold to a Trinity view point. Most Trinitarians do not understand how the Word was not God being called God.]
    John 1:1-2 Literal
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was god. . .
    This one was in the beginning with The God.
    BU
    Bibleuser, did you understand? Let me state it this way. As Jehovah had Moses represent Himself to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1), Jehovah had the Word represent Himself to all of His creation (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17; Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 1:2). Can you comment on this?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    The Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar says that John 1:1 has to be translated as "and the Word was God" not "a God"

    "Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person."

    https://www.theopedia.com/granville-sharps-rule

  8. Amen 37818 amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Goulette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpholding View Post
    I answer that too, but in an article behind a paywall. You can write me for a free copy.

    The sum of it though is that the whole "god or man" question is based on modern ideas about how we reckon identity. Ancient people, the way they classed identity, would not have had any problems with this.
    Quick question: Why was the trinity an issue in the early church then?

  10. #218
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar says that John 1:1 has to be translated as "and the Word was God" not "a God"

    "Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person."

    https://www.theopedia.com/granville-sharps-rule
    According to David Bentley Hart, John 1:1 is an ambiguous statement about Jesus' divinity in the Greek (perhaps deliberately so); Thomas the apostle's statement toward the end of the book (John 20:28) is rather more definite in his opinion. He has some fairly extensive footnotes regarding the issue in his translation of the NT.
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  11. #219
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goulette View Post
    Quick question: Why was the trinity an issue in the early church then?
    Why should the explanation be the problem? Trinity is the name of the explanation.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  12. #220
    tWebber Goulette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Why should the explanation be the problem? Trinity is the name of the explanation.


    I was asking why the early church, which began in ancient times, struggled to define the doctrine if, as JPH said, "Ancient people, the way they classed identity, would not have had any problems with this."

    (Although perhaps it wasn't the church at large that had a hard time with the time, but certain leaders who were excommunicated for not getting it. Certain people of the Tassman type.)

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