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Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
    This discussion can go in many different directions. But let me point out one insuperable (logical) problem, as I see it, surrounding the God-man nature of Christ. He is said to be both fully God and fully man. When Jesus died on the cross, (1) did the God-man Jesus die? (2) Did the God Jesus die? (3) Did the man Jesus die?

    Different Trinitarians answer these questions differently. I'd like to hear what you answer is.
    I answer that too, but in an article behind a paywall. You can write me for a free copy.

    The sum of it though is that the whole "god or man" question is based on modern ideas about how we reckon identity. Ancient people, the way they classed identity, would not have had any problems with this.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
      I didn't look at the Church Fathers' works, but I did look at the works of Robert M. Bowman's works, William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler, and other, and not so, prominent theologians/apologists. I've listened to the debates between James White (Alpha and Omega Ministries) and other Unitarians (like Greg Stafford former JW and Anthony Buzzard). The more I look both into the arguments for the Trinitarian view and the Unitarian view, the more I become convinced that the Unitarian view fits hands and gloves with the biblical data.
      You'd be far better served to read the Church Fathers who hashed all this out in the 4th/5th centuries than to come here asking for help from amateurs. And Larry Hurtado has persuaded many scholars to take a second look at the high Christology of the NT.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #33
        Just an Administrative Note, RGJesus - If you are a unitarian or don't believe in the Trinity, you will need to change your faith designation to either "Unitarian" or "Unorthodox"

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
          I know about Nick Peters (son-in-law of Mike Licona). He's a very good apologist.
          I was at his wedding and he's been in my house. "Good" is a dramatic understatement.

          Don't you believe in the Trinity?
          Of course I do.

          If so, I'd like to hear how you personally would argue for the Trinity.

          Sure. There is only 1 God. That 1 God exists eternally in 3 unique centers of consciousness, or "persons" as we call them. The Father is God. He is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is God. He is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God. He is not the Father and is not the Son. Deity was not transferred or bestowed on any of the 3 persons. The Son took on an additional nature of humanity, forever possessing the two natures.


          Give it your best shot, unless you're afraid that I might plant doubts in your head.
          I've debated PhDs from Brigham Young who have far more experience trying to refute the Triune nature of God than you will ever possess. Plant doubts...

          If so, that should motivate you to make sure what you believe corresponds with truth.
          Been there. Done that.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
            Let's just say my spirit doesn't die when my flesh does. When Jesus died, was his flesh that died? If so, then it is the man Jesus that died, not the God-man Jesus. Or maybe it is the flesh of (the God-man) Jesus that died. Are you not seeing the logical problem?
            Only flesh dies the first death. Jesus is the God/Man, even when He was physically dead.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
              Then, thewriteranon, you've just branded Bill the Cat as guilty of apollinarianism, I think.
              Wrong.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by thewriteranon View Post
                I'm not going to play question and answer games as I don't like the cut of your jib here. You're going to need to go back to the church fathers because you clearly are approaching the whole question in a modernist mindset that is recent and deeply flawed. Athanasius, first and foremost. The Cappadocian fathers. And please throw in some pseudo-Dionysius to introduce you to the concept of theological mystery.
                I'm not playing games. I'm trying to get answers to my nagging questions. The questions asked thus far are some of the myriads of other ones unanswered adequately, which is why I'm abandoning the Trinitarian view.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by jpholding View Post
                  I answer that too, but in an article behind a paywall. You can write me for a free copy.

                  The sum of it though is that the whole "god or man" question is based on modern ideas about how we reckon identity. Ancient people, the way they classed identity, would not have had any problems with this.
                  How would you answer the questions?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Only flesh dies the first death. Jesus is the God/Man, even when He was physically dead.
                    So, "only flesh" died. This clearly contradicts what you affirmed early on, namely, the God-man died. Unless I misunderstood you.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
                      So, "only flesh" died. This clearly contradicts what you affirmed early on, namely, the God-man died. Unless I misunderstood you.
                      I asked you a leading question. When you die, your flesh dies, but your spirit lives on. The man RGJesus died, but the man RGJesus lives as spirit.

                      The God/Man Jesus died, but the God/Man Jesus lived on.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        Sure. There is only 1 God. That 1 God exists eternally in 3 unique centers of consciousness, or "persons" as we call them. The Father is God. He is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is God. He is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God. He is not the Father and is not the Son. Deity was not transferred or bestowed on any of the 3 persons. The Son took on an additional nature of humanity, forever possessing the two natures.
                        All you did is present the doctrine. You didn't provide any argument for it.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
                          I'm not playing games. I'm trying to get answers to my nagging questions. The questions asked thus far are some of the myriads of other ones unanswered adequately, which is why I'm abandoning the Trinitarian view.
                          The "one question at a time" is most definitely a game. I've seen it in action before. It can lead to absurdities based on the bias of the asker. "Does a cat have four legs?" I might ask. If you are a fool, you answer, "Yes." If you are less of a fool you might answer, "Generally, yes." I might ask then, "Does a cat then walk upon four legs?" Again, "yes" or "generally yes." And I will take each of these simplistic questions in no context and use them to build an absurd case because each answer does not necessarily follow from the previous. They are only related in the asker's mind. "Aha! So you see now that a cat cannot both have three and four legs! By your own answers!" Or "Aha! You have just proven that cats and dogs are essentially the same!" Or any other number of absurdities.

                          Furthermore you appear to be abandoning the Trinitarian view based largely on a modernist mindset. You have the cry of "Ad fontes! To the sources!" but you do not try to understand the nuances of the sources themselves. Your ad fontes appeal is largely hollow if you do not then proceed to understand what then led to the Creeds of faith in which Nestorianism, Arianism, Eutychianism, Apollinarianism, etc. were all condemned by the church catholic.

                          "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                          "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                          Katniss Everdeen


                          Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
                            All you did is present the doctrine. You didn't provide any argument for it.
                            So? Which part are you having a problem with?
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Just an Administrative Note, RGJesus - If you are a unitarian or don't believe in the Trinity, you will need to change your faith designation to either "Unitarian" or "Unorthodox"
                              My faith designation is Christian.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                I asked you a leading question. When you die, your flesh dies, but your spirit lives on. The man RGJesus died, but the man RGJesus lives as spirit.

                                The God/Man Jesus died, but the God/Man Jesus lived on.
                                He appears to be dividing the spirit and the flesh as the flesh being Man and the Spirit being God, which is not the orthodox understanding.

                                "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                                "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                                Katniss Everdeen


                                Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

                                Comment

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