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Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

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  • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
    That is not quite right as it says:-
    As the Holy Scriptures states that Almighty God cannot be seen, see below:-

    1 John 4:12 At NO TIME has anyone beheld God.

    John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

    Now this is an important statement in our discussion, “NO MAN has seen God at ANY time” as this must include Abraham etc. etc. otherwise it is untrue, and that cannot be so can it?

    John 5:37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure.”

    John 6:46 “Jesus said “Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father.””


    If the Bible says that NO man at ANY time has or can see God then this must be true as it is statement “inspired of God”. Then Jesus cannot be God.
    That is referring to God the Father not the Son.

    Comment


    • Also BibleUser, if someone else from the moderator staff has not contacted you yet, as a nontrinitarian you need to change your faith designation in your profile to "Unorthodox"

      This is an official request (I am one of the owners here)

      Thanks

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
        That is not quite right as it says:-
        As the Holy Scriptures states that Almighty God cannot be seen, see below:-

        1 John 4:12 At NO TIME has anyone beheld God.

        John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

        Now this is an important statement in our discussion, “NO MAN has seen God at ANY time” as this must include Abraham etc. etc. otherwise it is untrue, and that cannot be so can it?

        John 5:37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure.”

        John 6:46 “Jesus said “Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father.””


        If the Bible says that NO man at ANY time has or can see God then this must be true as it is statement “inspired of God”. Then Jesus cannot be God.
        Interesting translation you're using there.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Interesting translation you're using there.
          Yeah I missed that. NWT. I suspected that BU is a Jehovah's Witness previously but he never answered me.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
            That is not quite right as it says:-
            As the Holy Scriptures states that Almighty God cannot be seen, see below:-

            1 John 4:12 At NO TIME has anyone beheld God.

            John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

            Now this is an important statement in our discussion, “NO MAN has seen God at ANY time” as this must include Abraham etc. etc. otherwise it is untrue, and that cannot be so can it?

            John 5:37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure.”

            John 6:46 “Jesus said “Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father.””


            If the Bible says that NO man at ANY time has or can see God then this must be true as it is statement “inspired of God”. Then Jesus cannot be God.
            Let me understand this, are you saying Jehovah is not Almighty God because He has been seen? ". . . And Jehovah appeared unto Abram, and said, . . . " -- Genesis 12:7. ". . . mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts. . . ." -- Isaiah 6:5.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
              That is not quite right as it says:-
              As the Holy Scriptures states that Almighty God cannot be seen, see below:-

              1 John 4:12 At NO TIME has anyone beheld God.

              John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

              Now this is an important statement in our discussion, “NO MAN has seen God at ANY time” as this must include Abraham etc. etc. otherwise it is untrue, and that cannot be so can it?
              As Sparko noted, not a reference to God, but to the Father. John also (when quoting Jesus) says "no-one has seen the Father." Plenty of people are recorded in the Old Testament to have seen God, as noted by 37818, so interpretation based on a proper textual analysis is necessary. Reading "God" as meaning other than the Father is at best a matter of eisegesis.


              John 5:37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure.”
              Look again - it doesn't say "God", it says "Father." Nor can this text be a general "you" - it is quite clearly aimed at a specific group of people.

              John 6:46 “Jesus said “Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father.”
              Ah. You are aware of the text I referred to earlier - it seems strange that you should have missed its significance, and failed to investigate further.


              If the Bible says that NO man at ANY time has or can see God then this must be true as it is statement “inspired of God”. Then Jesus cannot be God.
              It can readily be demonstrated that not everything in the Bible is inspired by God - so no, the premise results in an unsound conclusion. ... and it would be unsound even if the conclusion were true.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

                Here is some great help for you:-

                IN THE BIBLE.

                Please note that NOWHERE in The Bible do we read ‘God The Son’ or “God The Holy Spirit,’ these are man made phrases! The Bible does use the phrase “God The Father,” here are a few examples:-

                Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father,

                Ephesians 6:23 May the brothers have peace and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

                Philippians 2:11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

                Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,


                GOD IS “ONE” ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE.

                Psalm 83:18 May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You ALONE are the Most High over all the earth.

                Exodus 33:20 But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

                Deut. 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.

                Mark 12:29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,

                Mark 12:32 The scribe said to him: “Teacher, you spoke well, in line with truth, ‘He is One, and there is no other besides him’;

                1 Cor. 8:6 there is actually to us ONE GOD, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

                Galatians 3:20
                “Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one.”



                GOD THE “FATHER IS GREATER” THAN JESUS, SO HOW CAN HE BE EQUAL WITH “GOD THE FATHER.”

                John 14:27, 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I AM.

                GOD IS ALL KNOWING OR OMNISCIENT, JESUS IS NOT!!

                Matt. 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.

                Mark 13:3 “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.

                Acts 1:7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.


                THE BIBLE STATES THAT GOD CANNOT BE SEEN, BUT JESUS HAS BEEN SEEN.

                1 John 4:12 At NO TIME has anyone beheld God.

                John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

                Now this is an important statement, “NO MAN has seen GOD at ANY time” as this must include All humans, otherwise it is untrue, and that cannot be so, can it?

                John 5:37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure.”

                John 6:46 “JESUS SAID “Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has SEEN the Father.””

                If the Bible says that NO man at ANY time has or can see God then this must be true as it is statement “inspired of God.”-2 Tim. 3:16-17


                JESUS IS SUBSERVIENT TO GOD!

                1 Corinthians 15:24-28
                The reading from the New International Version (note the bold type) is as follows:-
                "24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
                25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
                26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
                27 For he "has put everything under his feet". Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
                28 When he has done this, then THE SON HIMSELF WILL BE MADE SUBJECT TO HIM who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

                In the above text Jesus Christ is subservient to God The Father, Jehovah, after his being resurrected back to heaven life! This is also shown at:-

                N.I.V. 1 Cor. 11:3 "Now I want you to realise that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

                1 Cor. 11:3 Good News Bible (T.E.V.) “But I want you to understand that Christ is supreme over every man, the husband is supreme over his wife, and God is supreme over Christ.”


                JESUS WAS “SENT!”

                Matthew 10:40 “Whoever receives you receives me also, and whoever receives me receives also the One who sent me.

                Mark 9:37 “Whoever receives one of such young children on the basis of my name receives me also; and whoever receives me receives not me only but also Him who sent me.”

                Luke 4:18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free,

                John 4:34 . . .Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

                John 5:30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

                John 5:36, 37 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form,

                John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day.


                JESUS “GIVEN” POWER.

                NO ONE CAN GIVE GOD POWER.

                HOW CAN THIS BE IF JESUS IS GOD?

                Matt. 28:18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

                Philippians 2:9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,


                The Bible shows that Jesus has a God whom he worships. Example: prayer is an act of Worship, Jesus prayed many times to his Father and God.

                John 4:23, 24 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will WORSHIP THE FATHER with spirit and truth, for indeed, THE FATHER IS LOOKING FOR ONES LIKE THESE TO WORSHIP HIM. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

                1 Cor. 15:24 Next, the end, when he [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to his God and Father. . .

                2 Cor. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, . . .

                2 Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus,. .

                Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,. . .

                1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, . . .

                The Texts say "the God ... of Jesus Christ" and "the ... Father of Jesus Christ." They are the same person! Showing The Father (Jehovah) is Jesus' God, which Jesus himself confirmed when he said:-

                Matthew 27:46 “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

                Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice: “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” which means, when translated: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

                John 20:17 I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

                Therefore, the word of Jesus Christ's own mouth puts the creeds in their true light, they are false teachings!


                JESUS IS A “PRIEST” AND AN “APOSTLE” AND A “MEDIATOR” OF AND FOR GOD.

                Hebrews 3:1 “ . . .consider THE APOSTLE AND HIGH PRIEST WHOM WE ACKNOWLEDGE—JESUS.”

                Apostle - The Greek word apostolos is derived from the common verb apostello, meaning simply “send forth (or off).” (Mtt. 10:5; Mk 11:3) Its basic sense is clearly illustrated in Jesus’ statement: “A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth [apostolos] greater than the one that sent him.” (John 13:16) In this sense the word also applies to Christ Jesus as “the apostle and high priest whom we confess.” (Heb 3:1; compare Mtt. 10:40; 15:24; Lk. 4:18, 43; 9:48; 10:16; John 3:17; 5:36, 38; 6:29, 57; 7:29; 8:42; 10:36; 11:42; 17:3, 8, 18, 21-25; 20:21.) Thus Jesus was sent forth by God as his appointed and commissioned representative.


                Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, . . .

                Hebrews 6:20 “… where a forerunner has entered in our behalf, Jesus, who has become a high priest in the manner of Melchizedek forever.”

                Hebrews 7:22 “.. .Jesus has accordingly become the guarantee of a better covenant.
                26 . . .For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
                27 . . .because he did this once for all time when he offered himself up.
                8:1 Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens …” (Jesus at God’s right hand. - See Heb. 1:1-3)

                1 Timothy 2:5 “FOR THERE IS ONE GOD, AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, A MAN, CHRIST JESUS.”

                Hebrews 8:6 But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises.

                Hebrews 9:14 - 15 “ . .how much more will the blood of the CHRIST, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God? 15 That is why HE is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.”

                Hebrews 12:24 . . .and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.


                BU

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                  Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

                  Here is some great help for you:-



                  IN THE BIBLE.

                  Please note that NOWHERE in The Bible do we read ‘God The Son’ or “God The Holy Spirit,’ these are man made phrases! The Bible does use the phrase “God The Father,” here are a few examples:-
                  No it doesn't. It uses the phrase Theos pater.

                  Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father,

                  Ephesians 6:23 May the brothers have peace and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

                  Philippians 2:11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

                  Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
                  Congratulations. You just proved the Father is not the Son.


                  GOD IS “ONE” ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE.

                  Psalm 83:18 May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You ALONE are the Most High over all the earth.

                  Exodus 33:20 But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”



                  Deut. 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.

                  Mark 12:29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,

                  Mark 12:32 The scribe said to him: “Teacher, you spoke well, in line with truth, ‘He is One, and there is no other besides him’;

                  1 Cor. 8:6 there is actually to us ONE GOD, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

                  Galatians 3:20
                  “Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one.”



                  GOD THE “FATHER IS GREATER” THAN JESUS, SO HOW CAN HE BE EQUAL WITH “GOD THE FATHER.”

                  John 14:27, 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I AM.

                  GOD IS ALL KNOWING OR OMNISCIENT, JESUS IS NOT!!

                  Matt. 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.

                  Mark 13:3 “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.

                  Acts 1:7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.


                  THE BIBLE STATES THAT GOD CANNOT BE SEEN, BUT JESUS HAS BEEN SEEN.

                  1 John 4:12 At NO TIME has anyone beheld God.

                  John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

                  Now this is an important statement, “NO MAN has seen GOD at ANY time” as this must include All humans, otherwise it is untrue, and that cannot be so, can it?

                  John 5:37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure.”

                  John 6:46 “JESUS SAID “Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has SEEN the Father.””

                  If the Bible says that NO man at ANY time has or can see God then this must be true as it is statement “inspired of God.”-2 Tim. 3:16-17


                  JESUS IS SUBSERVIENT TO GOD!

                  1 Corinthians 15:24-28
                  The reading from the New International Version (note the bold type) is as follows:-
                  "24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
                  25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
                  26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
                  27 For he "has put everything under his feet". Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
                  28 When he has done this, then THE SON HIMSELF WILL BE MADE SUBJECT TO HIM who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

                  In the above text Jesus Christ is subservient to God The Father, Jehovah, after his being resurrected back to heaven life! This is also shown at:-

                  N.I.V. 1 Cor. 11:3 "Now I want you to realise that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

                  1 Cor. 11:3 Good News Bible (T.E.V.) “But I want you to understand that Christ is supreme over every man, the husband is supreme over his wife, and God is supreme over Christ.”


                  JESUS WAS “SENT!”

                  Matthew 10:40 “Whoever receives you receives me also, and whoever receives me receives also the One who sent me.

                  Mark 9:37 “Whoever receives one of such young children on the basis of my name receives me also; and whoever receives me receives not me only but also Him who sent me.”

                  Luke 4:18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free,

                  John 4:34 . . .Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

                  John 5:30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

                  John 5:36, 37 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form,

                  John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day.


                  JESUS “GIVEN” POWER.

                  NO ONE CAN GIVE GOD POWER.

                  HOW CAN THIS BE IF JESUS IS GOD?

                  Matt. 28:18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

                  Philippians 2:9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,


                  The Bible shows that Jesus has a God whom he worships. Example: prayer is an act of Worship, Jesus prayed many times to his Father and God.

                  John 4:23, 24 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will WORSHIP THE FATHER with spirit and truth, for indeed, THE FATHER IS LOOKING FOR ONES LIKE THESE TO WORSHIP HIM. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

                  1 Cor. 15:24 Next, the end, when he [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to his God and Father. . .

                  2 Cor. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, . . .

                  2 Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus,. .

                  Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,. . .

                  1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, . . .

                  The Texts say "the God ... of Jesus Christ" and "the ... Father of Jesus Christ." They are the same person! Showing The Father (Jehovah) is Jesus' God, which Jesus himself confirmed when he said:-

                  Matthew 27:46 “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

                  Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice: “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” which means, when translated: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

                  John 20:17 I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

                  Therefore, the word of Jesus Christ's own mouth puts the creeds in their true light, they are false teachings!


                  JESUS IS A “PRIEST” AND AN “APOSTLE” AND A “MEDIATOR” OF AND FOR GOD.

                  Hebrews 3:1 “ . . .consider THE APOSTLE AND HIGH PRIEST WHOM WE ACKNOWLEDGE—JESUS.”

                  Apostle - The Greek word apostolos is derived from the common verb apostello, meaning simply “send forth (or off).” (Mtt. 10:5; Mk 11:3) Its basic sense is clearly illustrated in Jesus’ statement: “A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth [apostolos] greater than the one that sent him.” (John 13:16) In this sense the word also applies to Christ Jesus as “the apostle and high priest whom we confess.” (Heb 3:1; compare Mtt. 10:40; 15:24; Lk. 4:18, 43; 9:48; 10:16; John 3:17; 5:36, 38; 6:29, 57; 7:29; 8:42; 10:36; 11:42; 17:3, 8, 18, 21-25; 20:21.) Thus Jesus was sent forth by God as his appointed and commissioned representative.


                  Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, . . .

                  Hebrews 6:20 “… where a forerunner has entered in our behalf, Jesus, who has become a high priest in the manner of Melchizedek forever.”

                  Hebrews 7:22 “.. .Jesus has accordingly become the guarantee of a better covenant.
                  26 . . .For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
                  27 . . .because he did this once for all time when he offered himself up.
                  8:1 Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens …” (Jesus at God’s right hand. - See Heb. 1:1-3)

                  1 Timothy 2:5 “FOR THERE IS ONE GOD, AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, A MAN, CHRIST JESUS.”

                  Hebrews 8:6 But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises.

                  Hebrews 9:14 - 15 “ . .how much more will the blood of the CHRIST, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God? 15 That is why HE is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.”

                  Hebrews 12:24 . . .and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.


                  BU


                  YAY!!! quote wars!!!

                  Isaiah 44:6
                  "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."
                  John 1:49,
                  "Nathanael answered Him, 'Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.'"
                  Rev. 22:12-13,
                  "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


                  Deut. 10:17,
                  "For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality, nor take a bribe."
                  Rev. 17:14,
                  "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

                  Joel 2:32,
                  "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls."
                  Rom. 10:13 ,
                  "for 'Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

                  Isaiah 45:23
                  "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."
                  Phil. 2:10-11,
                  "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • [QUOTE=Bibleuser;500226]Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

                    Here is some great help for you:-

                    IN THE BIBLE.

                    Please note that NOWHERE in The Bible do we read ‘God The Son’ or “God The Holy Spirit,’ these are man made phrases! The Bible does use the phrase “God The Father,” here are a few examples:-
                    Jesus is identified as God, and as the creator. The Holy Spirit is identified as God. The Father is identified as God. The fact that the Bible does not use the phrases "God the ~" does not mean that the identification is absent.

                    Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father,

                    Ephesians 6:23 May the brothers have peace and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

                    Philippians 2:11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

                    Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
                    Yes, the separate identities of "God the Father" and the "Lord Jesus Christ" are indeed shown. None of these passages make mention of whether (or not) Jesus Christ is God.


                    [quote]GOD IS “ONE” ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE.

                    Psalm 83:18 May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You ALONE are the Most High over all the earth.

                    Exodus 33:20 But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

                    Deut. 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.

                    Mark 12:29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,

                    Mark 12:32 The scribe said to him: “Teacher, you spoke well, in line with truth, ‘He is One, and there is no other besides him’;

                    1 Cor. 8:6 there is actually to us ONE GOD, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.
                    This would perhaps argue against co-equal, but it doesn't address the identification of Christ Jesus or the Holy Spirit as God.

                    Galatians 3:20
                    “Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one.”
                    So, there is a mediator between God (one) and man (a collective, other, one) This does not address the identity of Christ Jesus as God, not pro and not con.



                    GOD THE “FATHER IS GREATER” THAN JESUS, SO HOW CAN HE BE EQUAL WITH “GOD THE FATHER.”

                    John 14:27, 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I AM.
                    Again, this might support an argument against co-equality - it has nothing to say about the argument for identity.

                    GOD IS ALL KNOWING OR OMNISCIENT, JESUS IS NOT!!

                    Matt. 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
                    Mark 13:3 “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.
                    "was not" could be supported.


                    Acts 1:7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.
                    Not even in the ball park as far as Christ's identity goes.


                    THE BIBLE STATES THAT GOD CANNOT BE SEEN, BUT JESUS HAS BEEN SEEN.

                    1 John 4:12 At NO TIME has anyone beheld God.

                    John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

                    Now this is an important statement, “NO MAN has seen GOD at ANY time” as this must include All humans, otherwise it is untrue, and that cannot be so, can it?
                    Did you not read the earlier responses to this claim?

                    John 5:37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. YOU have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his figure.”

                    John 6:46 “JESUS SAID “Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has SEEN the Father.””
                    Eh? You just got through claiming that no man has seen God (disregarding previous explanations.) Now you claim that Jesus has seen God. If nothing else, that would demonstrate that Jesus is not a man. However, your claim about the signification of "No man has seen God" is in error.

                    If the Bible says that NO man at ANY time has or can see God then this must be true as it is statement “inspired of God.”-2 Tim. 3:16-17
                    The Bible does in fact state that quite a number of people have seen God. So disregarding the explanation of "no man has seen God" leaves you without a plausible argument. The translation of 2 Tim 3:16-17 is questionable, and even if it were proven an accurate translation, it would be disproven by the actual existence of errors in the scriptural record.


                    JESUS IS SUBSERVIENT TO GOD!

                    1 Corinthians 15:24-28
                    The reading from the New International Version (note the bold type) is as follows:-
                    "24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
                    25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
                    26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
                    27 For he "has put everything under his feet". Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
                    28 When he has done this, then THE SON HIMSELF WILL BE MADE SUBJECT TO HIM who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

                    In the above text Jesus Christ is subservient to God The Father, Jehovah, after his being resurrected back to heaven life! This is also shown at:-

                    N.I.V. 1 Cor. 11:3 "Now I want you to realise that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

                    1 Cor. 11:3 Good News Bible (T.E.V.) “But I want you to understand that Christ is supreme over every man, the husband is supreme over his wife, and God is supreme over Christ.”


                    JESUS WAS “SENT!”

                    Matthew 10:40 “Whoever receives you receives me also, and whoever receives me receives also the One who sent me.

                    Mark 9:37 “Whoever receives one of such young children on the basis of my name receives me also; and whoever receives me receives not me only but also Him who sent me.”

                    Luke 4:18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free,

                    John 4:34 . . .Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.

                    John 5:30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

                    John 5:36, 37 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form,

                    John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day.


                    JESUS “GIVEN” POWER.

                    NO ONE CAN GIVE GOD POWER.

                    HOW CAN THIS BE IF JESUS IS GOD?

                    Matt. 28:18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

                    Philippians 2:9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,


                    The Bible shows that Jesus has a God whom he worships. Example: prayer is an act of Worship, Jesus prayed many times to his Father and God.

                    John 4:23, 24 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will WORSHIP THE FATHER with spirit and truth, for indeed, THE FATHER IS LOOKING FOR ONES LIKE THESE TO WORSHIP HIM. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

                    1 Cor. 15:24 Next, the end, when he [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to his God and Father. . .

                    2 Cor. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, . . .

                    2 Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus,. .

                    Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,. . .

                    1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, . . .

                    The Texts say "the God ... of Jesus Christ" and "the ... Father of Jesus Christ." They are the same person! Showing The Father (Jehovah) is Jesus' God, which Jesus himself confirmed when he said:-

                    Matthew 27:46 “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

                    Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice: “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” which means, when translated: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

                    John 20:17 I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

                    Therefore, the word of Jesus Christ's own mouth puts the creeds in their true light, they are false teachings!
                    Yup - there is strong argument in the New Testament against the idea that Jesus WAS co-equal with the Father during the time between his birth and death. Problem is - the Old Testament prophecy identifies the person who was pierced as God himself.


                    JESUS IS A “PRIEST” AND AN “APOSTLE” AND A “MEDIATOR” OF AND FOR GOD.

                    Hebrews 3:1 “ . . .consider THE APOSTLE AND HIGH PRIEST WHOM WE ACKNOWLEDGE—JESUS.”

                    Apostle - The Greek word apostolos is derived from the common verb apostello, meaning simply “send forth (or off).” (Mtt. 10:5; Mk 11:3) Its basic sense is clearly illustrated in Jesus’ statement: “A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth [apostolos] greater than the one that sent him.” (John 13:16) In this sense the word also applies to Christ Jesus as “the apostle and high priest whom we confess.” (Heb 3:1; compare Mtt. 10:40; 15:24; Lk. 4:18, 43; 9:48; 10:16; John 3:17; 5:36, 38; 6:29, 57; 7:29; 8:42; 10:36; 11:42; 17:3, 8, 18, 21-25; 20:21.) Thus Jesus was sent forth by God as his appointed and commissioned representative.
                    Almost got it. Of persons, "apostle" means "commissioner" (or even "high commissioner") However, you missed a couple of key words that show this as one role of several which Jesus adopted during his time as a man (including being human).


                    Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, . . .

                    Hebrews 6:20 “… where a forerunner has entered in our behalf, Jesus, who has become a high priest in the manner of Melchizedek forever.”

                    Hebrews 7:22 “.. .Jesus has accordingly become the guarantee of a better covenant.
                    26 . . .For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
                    27 . . .because he did this once for all time when he offered himself up.
                    8:1 Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens …” (Jesus at God’s right hand. - See Heb. 1:1-3)

                    1 Timothy 2:5 “FOR THERE IS ONE GOD, AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, A MAN, CHRIST JESUS.”

                    Hebrews 8:6 But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises.

                    Hebrews 9:14 - 15 “ . .how much more will the blood of the CHRIST, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God? 15 That is why HE is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.”

                    Hebrews 12:24 . . .and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.


                    BU
                    Yup, mediator, priest, rabbi even, apostle, high priest - all roles that Jesus the man had - and by no means a complete list.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • True some of many roles.
                      As a Mediator he acts as a go-between between for Christians and God, thus is not God but acting out his role as The Lamb of God and also as High Priest of God. God cannot be his own Mediator or High Priest, the are a servants role for God.
                      BU

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                        True some of many roles.
                        As a Mediator he acts as a go-between between for Christians and God, thus is not God but acting out his role as The Lamb of God and also as High Priest of God. God cannot be his own Mediator or High Priest, the are a servants role for God.
                        BU
                        Isaiah 44:6
                        "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."


                        John 1:49,
                        "Nathanael answered Him, 'Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.'"


                        Rev. 22:12-13,
                        "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        - Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • There is no disagreement in the man Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5) being the mediator between man and God. And that God not being a man (John 4:24).

                          Jesus made the claim that he was man's sole access to God the Father (John 14:6).


                          The problem you have not answered, is Jehovah being God and being seen (Genesis 12:7; Isaiah 6:5).
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • A lot of time was wasted responding to this heretic with fallacious appeals to authority. No created being could have entered a sinful world through birth as a man and remained completely sinless its entire life. For "all" have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God alone could have done it, which is why He did. Game. Set. Match.

                            There's also all the times Jesus spoke as and received worship reserved for God, but let's pretend "before Abraham was, I AM" never happened in the name of some clearly pretentious "struggle" with the truth. Those who deny the Son deny the Father and are the spirit of antichrist. The context makes it obvious that "denying" the Son means denying His divinity. Good luck in hell.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              There is no disagreement in the man Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5) being the mediator between man and God. And that God not being a man (John 4:24).

                              Jesus made the claim that he was man's sole access to God the Father (John 14:6).


                              The problem you have not answered, is Jehovah being God and being seen (Genesis 12:7; Isaiah 6:5).
                              The Bible answers:-
                              Exodus 33:20
                              "But he added: “You cannot see my face, for NO MAN man can see me and live.”

                              As God said this it must be true.

                              So Abraham, Moses, etc., etc, could not have seen GOD.
                              BU

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post





                                No it doesn't. It uses the phrase Theos pater.



                                Congratulations. You just proved the Father is not the Son.






                                YAY!!! quote wars!!!

                                Isaiah 44:6
                                "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."
                                John 1:49,
                                "Nathanael answered Him, 'Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.'"
                                Rev. 22:12-13,
                                "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


                                Deut. 10:17,
                                "For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality, nor take a bribe."
                                Rev. 17:14,
                                "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

                                Joel 2:32,
                                "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls."
                                Rom. 10:13 ,
                                "for 'Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

                                Isaiah 45:23
                                "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."
                                Phil. 2:10-11,
                                "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
                                All true.
                                BU

                                Comment

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