Works and Salvation

[MarcusAndreas]

OK. A common belief among many Christians is that we are saved only by our Faith in Christ, and that doing good works is not necessary. However, Scripture does NOT show that. In fact, it shows the opposite.

Matthew 25:31-46
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The message here is that we cannot say we are followers of Christ and then not help those in need, and that we are judged primarily by our works.

1 Corinthians 3:12-17


12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

ScriptureCatholic.com puts it better than I could here.

James 2:14-26
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

This is pretty obvious.

Revelation 20:11-15

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Again, this is quite obvious.

Those are my purely scriptural arguments for works being necessary for Salvation.

Some may say that works are a result of faith. That is not false, when we receive God's grace (Which, by the way, actually transforms us) we will be driven to do God's will. However, we can resist God's grace (Grace is not irresistible, if it was we would never sin) and go on sinning, without caring about what we are doing. You can say and believe you are a Christian but then go on to commit mortal sin (Sins that kill God's grace and are done with full consent of the will and full knowledge of the sinful nature of the act), not caring that what we are doing is wrong. I see this kind of behavior quite frequently.

Now I am NOT for one moment saying that faith in Christ is not necessary for salvation, it is necessary for Salvation, the Bible says so. However as the Scripture I have shown you states, it must be in conjunction with good works. And even if you are not a Christian, you will still be judged by how you live your life.

Faith without works is dead.

By the way, how am I doing with my debate skills?

[Alan3838]

Good start Mark. By the time your 20 you'll have great skills.

Wouldn't faith plus works void unmerited favor? (grace)

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Mark. How many works must I do to have salvation then? How faithful must I be? Are you sure you're faithful enough?

[Obsidian]

I think the main reason so many people have a hard time understanding soteriology is because they confuse temporal and eternal judgment. The Bible pretty clearly teaches that Christians will be rewarded for obedience and disciplined for disobedience...out of love (whether this "discipline" extends after death is more debatable).

The 1 Corinthians passage is about the worst one you could've chosen to support your view. It says the exact opposite of what you want. The person who builds a house of straw will himself be saved -- although slightly singed. It's clearly talking about temporal judgment. (Imo, this passage comes closer than any other to proving the existence of purgatory, but dreaming up a whole theology around one verse is a bit silly.)

You could easily suggest that the Revelation passage refers to this temporal judgment, or you could merely assume that the one "work" necessary for salvation is belief in Christ. See below.

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Furthermore, one position held by many preterists is that the Matthew passage actually refers to Christ's temporal judgment of the world. He is now ruler of the physical world, and the head of an expanding kingdom.

An alternative view would place it at the end of the world...but the verse itself clearly teaches salvation based on acceptance of Christianity. He says that the nations who accept, feed and clothe the least of his disciples will be saved. The point of the paragraph isn't about the nature of soteriology; his main point is that the disciples are his represenatives.

Regarding James, I have three comments. First, I'm not entirely convinced that James is actually scripture. Many in the early church had doubts about whether to place it in the canon (doubts which Martin Luther and other Rennaissance thinkers echoed). Furthermore, its rambly and rhetorical nature makes it look more like a written-down version of a sermon rather than a theological treatise.

Second, James himself states that if you violate one commandment, you violate them all.

Third, when James talks about faith and works, he is clearly either 1) rhetorical, as suggested above, or 2) simply wrong, as alternatively suggested above. Paul correctly cites the OT passage, which talks about belief saving Abraham.

Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

And that happened way before the Isaac-sacrificing scenario.

Either James is making a point that Christians should demonstrate their faith (the preferred view), or else he just misunderstood everything. Since he himself was a Jew and hopefully knew the OT fairly well, I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and suggest that he was exaggerating.

Finally, MetalMark, I can see that you are Catholic. Let me point out that the Catholic idea of soteriology is clearly unbiblical. Catholics believe that you can lose your salvation by committing certain sins, but that if you repent (and/or confess to a priest), you can regain your salvation. This idea flatly contradicts Hebrews 6:1-6, which suggests that we should move beyond repentence because it's impossible to regain lost repentence. (Imo, the author's point in Hebrews is that salvation cannot be lost, so we should stop acting like it can.)

[RBerman]

Good works are a necessary consequence of faith. Not a necessary prerequisite of salvation. Big difference.

[will33har]

However, we can resist God's grace (Grace is not irresistible, if it was we would never sin) and go on sinning, without caring about what we are doing. You can say and believe you are a Christian but then go on to commit mortal sin (Sins that kill God's grace and are done with full consent of the will and full knowledge of the sinful nature of the act), not caring that what we are doing is wrong. I see this kind of behavior quite frequently.

You had me in agrement right up to this point. Maybe I'm not completely understanding what you are saying but it seems like you are trying to say that a person can actually be 'transformed' by the Spirit of God and still live in carnality. That a person can be saved but never live like God had 'put His law in their minds and written it upon their hearts.' Or like God never 'gave them one heart and one way that they may fear God forever', 'one mind and one Spirit', that God never 'put His fear in their hearts so that they would never depart from Him'. Live as if God had never 'sprinkled clean water on them that they should be clean or cleansed them of all their filthiness and idols'. essentially it sounds to me like you are trying to say that they can be transformed without ever being transformed.

now I can agree with you that faith without works is dead, I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the idea that someone can have an encounter with the Creator of heaven and earth, Jesus Christ, and not be changed, or live like they had never been changed which to me is one in the same thing. Maybe I misunderstood your post, If so, please clarify.

[Obsidian]

Some of you guys are discussing the impossibility of carnal Christians, but you should look again at the various NT epistles, which clearly document deeply flawed churches. Or you can study the early churches, which often had all kinds of idiots running the show (even among the relatively orthodox). The whole reason preachers had to get up and say things like "faith without works is dead" is because some of the congregants weren't displaying very nice works.

Anyway, I think it's mainly the Holy Spirit that brings about the good works, rather than the strength of the "faith" itself. Very few people, for example, would take their argument to the extreme and declare that faith will make us perfect in heaven. Faith saves us, but I think it's mainly God that does the transforming.

[Mags]

Everyone has made excellent points. It is a good question of whether our behavior matters.

Think about this: What if Jesus was a drunken adulterer, brawled with his disciples when they did not comprehend His teaching, or killed a Pharisee or two when they falsely accused him? Would you entrust judgement for eternal life this man?

From what I read, our behavior matters - alot.

Matt 15:18, "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander."

Matt 5:27, "You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Galatians 5:19-24, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Rev 21:6-8, “Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

James 4:1-3, "What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions." 4:10, "Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you."

[Abelard]

I think translating pistos as trust instead of belief gives a less confusing reading. Simply believing Jesus is Lord is insufficient

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but |only| the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’”
(Matt 7:21-23 HCSB)

If one trusts God, they follow his directives. They subordinate their physical existence and trust in God. Mere verbal assent is less than belief, it is an opinion.

Works without faith are valueless, but faith without works is a valid reason to suspect faith is not really there.

[themuzicman]

If one looks at the history of the RCC, especially at the time of the reformation, we find that the RCC placed little emphasis on faith, and a LOT on works.

If you look at Luther, from whom the idea of Sola Fide comes, he spent a good portion of his life trying the RCC way in earning his salvation through asceticism as a monk (forget which order.) Of course, we had priests running around collecting money to spring dead friends and relatives out of purgatory, as well. And, in essence, the RCC believed that if people came, did confession, went to mass, and participated in Eucharist, they were saved.

So, at least in part, protestantism started with a swing to the opposite extreme, where good works were not only a part of salvation, but that they were really not at all possible, and we know that sinful acts cannot be a part of salvation.

Thus, sola fide.

Since that time I think the RCC and protestantism have softened their edges, with many protestants acknowledging that saving faith has a quality that works result, and the RCC is realizing the importance of faith before works. Maybe someday we'll be close to agreeing on the issue.

Michael

[Obsidian]

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

I'm just kinda thinking, what's the point of Jesus dying for our sins if he's going to require works along with our faith?

Besides, look at that above passage, and just think about the justification process logically. Paul makes it relatively clear that once you are justified, nothing else is required to keep yourself justified.

If you are a murderer and you get saved, obviously your works have had no role in your salvation. And if nothing else is required to keep you saved...wa-la, free salvation!

And I'm not real sure about this idea of faith generating works. It seems to me that faith leads to justification, which causes the Holy Spirit to dwell in your body, who THEN works on sanctifying you. The whole idea of faith being the primary generator of works sounds more like an OT idea. In the OT, the Holy Spirit dwelt primarily in the Jewish temple rather than in believers. But now we have something better, and God's law is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

So the only question that remains is...how much faith does it take to justify a human? Jesus talks about the power of faith as small as a mustard seed. The thief on the cross certainly doesn't seem to produce any good works other than a basic confession (and afterwards he dies) -- yet Jesus seems sure of the thief's salvation. The incestuous believer in 1 Corinthians wasn't producing good works -- nor were many of the other people in the congregation.

I think you guys are being too perfectionistic and condemnatory. Like C.S. Lewis said, our sanctification should be judged based on our improvement from our previous lives, not from an objective comparison with other people.

[Thersites]

Mark. How many works must I do to have salvation then? How faithful must I be? Are you sure you're faithful enough?

1. Of those to whom much is given, much will be expected.

2. Completely.

3. We depend on God's mercy.

Who has the audacity to call themselves God's servants, and yet not lift a finger to do God's Will?

It's not like we're claiming that there's an accomplishment checklis-. It's not as if we think we need to feed the hungry x amount of times in order to enter Heaven. That's not what Mark is arguing for.

[one_lost_coin]

I'm just kinda thinking, what's the point of Jesus dying for our sins if he's going to require works along with our faith?

To show us the way we are called to live. To show us what love, perseverance and sacrifice for our neighbor so that we can carry our crosses. To make salvation possible. To be able to send us the Holy Spirit. To give us the Church, the sacraments, hope... That is only a few.

Besides, look at that above passage, and just think about the justification process logically. Paul makes it relatively clear that once you are justified, nothing else is required to keep yourself justified.

This is why God gave us an entire bible to read. St. Paul also says we must persevere in the faith to the very end. In addition St. James clears up any misunderstanding with his unambiguous statement faith without works is dead.

If you are a murderer and you get saved, obviously your works have had no role in your salvation. And if nothing else is required to keep you saved...wa-la, free salvation!

We are all sinners and we all need a saviour. What is your point? It is most certainly true there is nothing anyone can do to earn their salvation but that in no way negates what we receive through this sacrifice of our Lord... the Holy Spirit who works sanctification in us and bear the fruits of the Spirit, Love being the main one. John 15:8 – Jesus requires us to bear the good fruit of works if we are to be His disciples. These fruits are merits in Catholic teaching, all borne from God’s unmerited gift of grace.

And I'm not real sure about this idea of faith generating works. It seems to me that faith leads to justification, which causes the Holy Spirit to dwell in your body, who THEN works on sanctifying you. The whole idea of faith being the primary generator of works sounds more like an OT idea. In the OT, the Holy Spirit dwelt primarily in the Jewish temple rather than in believers. But now we have something better, and God's law is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

So the only question that remains is...how much faith does it take to justify a human? Jesus talks about the power of faith as small as a mustard seed. The thief on the cross certainly doesn't seem to produce any good works other than a basic confession (and afterwards he dies) -- yet Jesus seems sure of the thief's salvation. The incestuous believer in 1 Corinthians wasn't producing good works -- nor were many of the other people in the congregation.

Probably because of your misunderstanding of what is being said.

I think you guys are being too perfectionistic and condemnatory. Like C.S. Lewis said, our sanctification should be judged based on our improvement from our previous lives, not from an objective comparison with other people.

You should source the quote as you may be taking it out of context.

Jesus Christ says be perfect just as your Heavenly Father is perfect. It is perfection to which we are called and only what is perfect will ever stand in the presence of God.

If Lewis teaches any less than the perfection Jesus demands than Lewis is wrong. I seriously doubt Lewis is teaching that.

[Obsidian]

I'm pretty sure I addressed James in my first post above. Maybe you should take the time to read what I said. Furthermore, I already demonstrated the idiocy of your Catholic teaching. So I think you're going to have to do better than simply cite Jesus's "Be ye perfect." Being perfect obviously doesn't involve moral perfection on our part. Get real.

[will33har]

I think translating pistos as trust instead of belief gives a less confusing reading. Simply believing Jesus is Lord is insufficient

If one trusts God, they follow his directives. They subordinate their physical existence and trust in God. Mere verbal assent is less than belief, it is an opinion.

Works without faith are valueless, but faith without works is a valid reason to suspect faith is not really there.

Amen

Trust, yes, and I would go a step further and add obey.

Trust and Obey, seems like I've heard that somewhere before.