Test Of Immortality

[EphremHagos]

FOR DISCUSSION

“Not even death will EVER be able to overcome it.” Matthew 16:18 (Caps for emphasis)

Jesus Christ can neither be called “Son of the living God”, i.e., immortal, nor attributed victory over the Devil and death through his death (Heb. 2:14) if he was himself overcome by death on the cross and in the grave for three days. Can he?

[John Goddard]

FOR DISCUSSION

“Not even death will EVER be able to overcome it.” Matthew 16:18 (Caps for emphasis)

Jesus Christ can neither be called “Son of the living God”, i.e., immortal, nor attributed victory over the Devil and death through his death (Heb. 2:14) if he was himself overcome by death on the cross and in the grave for three days. Can he?

Victory and immortality are after and through resurrection into everlasting life.

The Devil only wins if you go on to everlasting death.

[EphremHagos]

Victory and immortality are after and through resurrection into everlasting life.

The Devil only wins if you go on to everlasting death.

All I am asking for is a solution, if any, for the apparent contradiction between, on the one hand, Jesus Christ as Son of the living God, i.e., immortal and, on the other hand, his death on the cross and in the grave for "three days"!

[John Goddard]

All I am asking for is a solution, if any, for the apparent contradiction between, on the one hand, Jesus Christ as Son of the living God, i.e., immortal and, on the other hand, his death on the cross and in the grave for "three days"!

Since Jesus was resurrected and never dies again, NOW he is immortal after the resurrection.

Who says he was immortal from birth?

[NormATive]

FOR DISCUSSION

“Not even death will EVER be able to overcome it.” Matthew 16:18 (Caps for emphasis)

Jesus Christ can neither be called “Son of the living God”, i.e., immortal, nor attributed victory over the Devil and death through his death (Heb. 2:14) if he was himself overcome by death on the cross and in the grave for three days. Can he?

What-ho? An interesting conundrum, what?

Although your Biblical reference is actually referring to the "faith" of Peter, it is interesting that Jesus is afforded immortal status (immortal being defined as one who always is - i.e.; was never born and can never die), yet "had to die" in order for the hex on the earth to be broken.

For me, this is further evidence that the "bona-fides" of Jesus were created after his death. It appears that two different philosophies existed at one time: a). those who believed Jesus was an immortal, and b). those who believed he became an immortal (such as John Goddard).

The "a" camp seems to have won the popular debate, but I would side with "b" (just to be contrary )

NORM

[Bernie]

The problem here as I see it is the same in all those propositions in which finite minds attempt to determine logically what an infinite being can or cannot do, should or should not act, etc.

Seems to me God, who alleges in Scripture to have created all we are and experience, should be able to remain Who the Father is while simultaneous entering matter as immortal Son and allowing Himself to be put to death, only to raise Himself again if it so pleased Him. Faith often stops at the end of the tunnel reason.

[NormATive]

The problem here as I see it is the same in all those propositions in which finite minds attempt to determine logically what an infinite being can or cannot do, should or should not act, etc.
...Faith often stops at the end of the tunnel reason.

Well that doesn't explain the conundrum in the OP.

What does "faith often stops at the end of the tunnel reason" mean?

Who created reason? Why would reason be of no use to understand G-d?

NORM

[Bernie]

What does "faith often stops at the end of the tunnel reason" mean?

Who created reason? Why would reason be of no use to understand G-d?

I didn't state that reason is of no use. I see reason as a tool. When truth is known, it's always found to be reasonable, but human reasoning can't penetrate/know higher things on two counts, 1) it's fragmented into truth and error (imperfection), and 2) the finite/infinite distinction underscores the former's lack of capacity to reach or fully fathom the latter. Seems to me God designed things in such a way reason is useful but insufficient.

As to the OP...

"Jesus Christ can [not] be called “Son of the living God”...immortal, nor attributed victory over the Devil and death through his death (Heb. 2:14) if he was himself overcome by death on the cross and in the grave for three days. Can he? "

....I understand EH to believe the dilemma lies in an infinite being's death being incapable of attaining the atonement by virtue of His having experienced the very death He purported to defeat. Sounds reasonable on the surface because we don't know anyone with the ability to morph his spirit (or some measure thereof) to join with a material form to be persecuted and killed while simultaneously observing this spatiotemporal event from a different vantage point. Then, if this isn't tough enough, rejuvenating to life that same lump of matter--to life.

But if we allow the mind to rest a few moments on what kind of being the God who created the universe must be, the powers and capabilities, faculties and potential such a being must have utterly denies us the the ability to comprehend that Being's abilities or motives on any more than a base level.

Anyway, I don't see this as much of a mystery. If Christ descended in spirit as Peter describes: "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison" (1Pet 3:18-19) before rejoining His resurrected body, He only suffered physical death, and the alleged conundrum vanishes. When Christ told us "Believe in Me and you will never die", He didn't say we would not die physically. At any rate I think we all pretty well figured that out by now.

In the final analysis, all regeneration is life brought forth from the midst of death. A good is produced from an evil, which in the end renders the evil illusory. There is no controversy in the OP as I see it.

[NormATive]

... Seems to me God designed things in such a way reason is useful but insufficient.

...In the final analysis, all regeneration is life brought forth from the midst of death. A good is produced from an evil, which in the end renders the evil illusory. There is no controversy in the OP as I see it.

Those are nice sounding words, but you still haven't addressed the OP.

The Bible in one instance says that Jesus did not attain immortality until after he was dead and resurrected (gospels). Yet, the Church teaches that Jesus was ALWAYS immortal, and this is the common understanding among evangelical Christians. John 1:1 is often quoted as proof as well as Colossians 1:15-20.

So, which is it? Was Jesus always immortal as stated in Colossians and John 1, or are the gospels correct and Jesus didn't become immortal until after the resurrection?

As to your past two posts; I disagree that G-d designed things with the intention of keeping us out of the loop. Quite the contrary. I believe that G-d fully intends for us to figure things out using the reasoning capabilities It placed within us. It's part of what makes us human. If you believe your scriptures; that is the very image of G-d.

NORM
Imago Dei

[EphremHagos]

Since Jesus was resurrected and never dies again, NOW he is immortal after the resurrection.

Who says he was immortal from birth?

It is altogether “another Jesus” who is immortal only after resurrection.

The Jesus Christ of the Gospels, in all his timeless existence, has never been anything other than the very personification of “resurrection and life” (“I Am Who I Am”), i.e., sustainable and self-sufficient source of life as, once-and-for-all, demonstrated by his works in the bush on fire but not burning up and also right at his death on the cross in terms of exclusively life-transforming, free-will and power over the Devil and death, open-house for self-revelation of God in Jesus Christ for personal visions; reproductions of his immortality as author of and final authority on faith; and free worship of God, as he is, i.e., in Spirit and truth!

If this sounds too mysterious, difficult and diacritical it’s because it really is! Without vision of the immortal Christ at his death on the cross, just as presented, one has absolutely no rights to “life in all its fullness” (John 3: 14-21; 10:10; 11: 25-26).

Finally, “Who says he was immortal from birth”? Isaiah, for one, called the child to be born and the son to be given, “Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace” (9:6). The Bible is not at all short of other witnesses who described Jesus as immortal at and before his birth, e.g., John the Baptist, “He comes after me, but he is greater than I am, because he existed before I was born” (John 1: 15, 30); the author of the fourth gospel, (Before his incarnation) “the Word already existed, was with God and was the same as God” (John 1: 1, 14), etc.

[GOD BLESS THEOLOGY WEB FOR BRINGING OUT THE BEST IN AND FOR ALL OF US! THIS FORUM IS, BY FAR, THE BEST!]

[EphremHagos]

Well that doesn't explain the conundrum in the OP.

What does "faith often stops at the end of the tunnel reason" mean?

Who created reason? Why would reason be of no use to understand G-d?

NORM

Indeed, this is an interesting conundrum with a built-in, perfect solution to the mystery of life, viz.: “life in all its fullness” --just as Jesus Christ came to solve and to give, not as “a pie in the sky”, but as a clearly labeled and prescribed gift of immortality here-and-now and at-and-after-death (John 10:10; 11: 25-26) even if we have chosen to turn a blind eye to it! We should all reconsider our positions!

Let us not be afraid to explore the realm of the spiritual, i.e., the Kingdom of God, complete with its own powerful logic of eternal Laws, Principles and
Applications described all over the Holy Bible and packed in, e.g., the teaching of Jesus Christ on Prayer (Matt. 6:9-11 summarized in verse 33 –the key to miracles past, present and future). How else can one obey the greatest and most important commandment of all: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind” (Matt. 22:37). Just imagine how infinitely sustainable faith would be if built on such knowledge

[EphremHagos]

What-ho? An interesting conundrum, what?

Although your Biblical reference is actually referring to the "faith" of Peter, it is interesting that Jesus is afforded immortal status (immortal being defined as one who always is - i.e.; was never born and can never die), yet "had to die" in order for the hex on the earth to be broken.

For me, this is further evidence that the "bona-fides" of Jesus were created after his death. It appears that two different philosophies existed at one time: a). those who believed Jesus was an immortal, and b). those who believed he became an immortal (such as John Goddard).

The "a" camp seems to have won the popular debate, but I would side with "b" (just to be contrary )

NORM

Consider the following alternative.

The pronoun “it” (Matt. 16:18) refers not to the immediately spurious faith of Peter but rather to the divine identity of Jesus Christ, as “Son of the living God”, i.e., himself immortal, revealed in the immediate and ultimate contexts exclusively by the Father in heaven; redefined as Jesus Christ’s “church” or the new temple, his body –“the way, the truth and the life” (Matt. 16: 13-28; John 2: 21-22; 14:6).

As clearly drawn in principle, the distinction between immortality by right and by grace is one of source and issue, respectively, pending the practice or virtual demonstration at the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. Asked to identify himself, Jesus said:

(I am) “What I have told you from the very beginning,
… the Father …”

“When you lift up the Son of Man, you will know
That ‘I Am Who I Am” (John 8: 21-28)

“I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes
in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives
and believes in me will never die.” (John 11: 25-26)

One has to be very careful, therefore, what one sides for or against.

Immortality is ours here-and-now and at-and-after death if we believe by experiencing (or knowing) Jesus Christ in his divine power and glory as immortal, self-sufficient life or “resurrection and life” right at his death on the cross. Outright denial, as well as, gullible acceptance can be a source of bitter disappointment even in this life!

[Bernie]

Hi Normative,

Those are nice sounding words,

Thank you. Your words are nice-sounding, too.

you still haven't addressed the OP.

I must be dense and don't get what EH is saying, then, because I addressed what I thought his point was. Apparently you've been able to glean more from the OP than I.

The Bible in one instance says that Jesus did not attain immortality until after he was dead and resurrected (gospels). Yet, the Church teaches that Jesus was ALWAYS immortal, and this is the common understanding among evangelical Christians. John 1:1 is often quoted as proof as well as Colossians 1:15-20.

I typically don't participate in or even read Trinity debates, so though I feel reasonably familiar with the Bible itself, am not familiar with the purported proofs you speak of in the gospels of Jesus' immortality.

So, which is it? Was Jesus always immortal as stated in Colossians and John 1, or are the gospels correct and Jesus didn't become immortal until after the resurrection?

I believe Jesus was always immortal. I believe He was the Father incarnate who has the ability to live while simultaneously allowing the material portion of Himself we call "Christ" to die physically. In this I believe He was an actor on His own stage, suffering His own death out of love for all mankind. Sorry, I don't see the conundrum you see.

I disagree that G-d designed things with the intention of keeping us out of the loop.

You seem to have an uncanny ability to repeatedly misinterpret my posts, Normative. I believe we took ourselves out of the loop, and I have never stated what you seem to have "heard" me say.

I believe that G-d fully intends for us to figure things out using the reasoning capabilities It placed within us.

If by this you mean we may, by the power of our exercised human reason, discover all mysteries in this life, I would expect nothing less from a libertarian. I politely disagree all the same.

[Bernie]

Indeed, this is an interesting conundrum with a built-in, perfect solution to the mystery of life, viz.: “life in all its fullness” --just as Jesus Christ came to solve and to give, not as “a pie in the sky”, but as a clearly labeled and prescribed gift of immortality here-and-now and at-and-after-death (John 10:10; 11: 25-26) even if we have chosen to turn a blind eye to it! We should all reconsider our positions!

Let us not be afraid to explore the realm of the spiritual, i.e., the Kingdom of God, complete with its own powerful logic of eternal Laws, Principles and
Applications described all over the Holy Bible and packed in, e.g., the teaching of Jesus Christ on Prayer (Matt. 6:9-11 summarized in verse 33 –the key to miracles past, present and future). How else can one obey the greatest and most important commandment of all: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind” (Matt. 22:37). Just imagine how infinitely sustainable faith would be if built on such knowledge

Ephrem, I feel like the chicken ranch dude who, having been asked by Napoleon Dynamite if the chickens had sharp talons, replied, "I don't understand a thing you said." Do you have a plain english version?

[NormATive]

Hi Normative,


Thank you. Your words are nice-sounding, too.


I must be dense and don't get what EH is saying, then, because I addressed what I thought his point was. Apparently you've been able to glean more from the OP than I.... Sorry, I don't see the conundrum you see.
.

OK, let me just spell it out then: The Bible says two different things: 1. Jesus is immortal 2. He died on the cross (not immortal).

Either the Bible is wrong, or we need some mental gymnastics (you've been doing quite nicely on the balance beam so far) to "fix" the contradiction.

In this instance, Occam's Razor is useful; where the simplest answer is usually correct. I think two different camps wrote the divergent texts in the Bible and in their haste to establish "God's Church on Earth," the architects of the Christian-Faith-As-We-Know-It overlooked the contradiction.

Case solved.

NORM