The Futurist Thread

[jds22]

The pop variation on this end of time is a European or other Gentile Antichrist/Beast signing or facilitating that 7 year peace treaty with Israel. I don't interpret Daniel that way but it comes close.

However on the other end, I don't remember anyone connecting the dots back to Romans + Herodian Israel as the first Antichrist and wounded head come back to life in the form of Gentile UN/US/UK/Etc. + Jewish Zionists or whatever you want to call the resurrected coalition. They may have.

Cool, thanks.

Jerry

[Littlejoe]

I totally agree with you here. Politically speaking, it's a precarious game trying to predict how things will fit into a futurist world view, and I often find myself jumping the gun with current issues that I'm so "sure" are setting up to be fulfilled, that I have to check myself before I end up with egg on my face.

That is really so dangerous IMHO. And I believe can lead to self fulfilling prophecy, don't you?
BTW, I think everyone here is assuming when you say "Preterism" that you mean Orthodox Pret and not Full Pret, right? Just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

This is why I have to go by scripture in the context of the whole scriptural scenario, and in the context of the whole Jewish eschatological scenario. I honestly wasn't too clear about preterism until I came on this board. Now that I see the arguments from scripture that support preterism, I've never been more sure that it's wrong than I was before until now.

Isn't it interesting how that happens! I came to this board also not too clear about preterism, and found that the more I learned, the more scripturally consistent it was than futurism. I began my journey years ago as a pre-trib disp. futurist. As I studied this more and more, I came to realized that the pre-trib rapture was unsupportable scripturally speaking. So I became a post-trib disp. futurist. As I studied more, I began to question the whole thing more and studied Historicism and Orthodox Preterism, I found they made much more sense biblically speaking than the wild conjectures of disp. Futurist.

LJ

[seanD]

That is really so dangerous IMHO. And I believe can lead to self fulfilling prophecy, don't you?
BTW, I think everyone here is assuming when you say "Preterism" that you mean Orthodox Pret and not Full Pret, right? Just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing

In all honesty, I could care less about the proper "labels." I'm only drawing conclusions from the arguments being presented by preterists here, and how they derive at these arguments from scripture.

Isn't it interesting how that happens! I came to this board also not too clear about preterism, and found that the more I learned, the more scripturally consistent it was than futurism. I began my journey years ago as a pre-trib disp. futurist. As I studied this more and more, I came to realized that the pre-trib rapture was unsupportable scripturally speaking. So I became a post-trib disp. futurist. As I studied more, I began to question the whole thing more and studied Historicism and Orthodox Preterism, I found they made much more sense biblically speaking than the wild conjectures of disp. Futurist.

I'm wondering, just out of curiosity, if people are making the mistake of basing their opinions on what others say. In other words, there are many things about futurist beliefs that I find completely wrong, and things about preterism that I find are portraying scripture accurately. The telltale sign to me is when preterists assume my arguments or put words in my mouth because of what they hear other futurists teach. No question about it, if I staked my own beliefs on what Hal Lindsey and the gang teach, I would definitely abandon furtuism. Sometimes you have to allow yourself to step outside the box. This is why I shun "labels' and fixed doctrines, because there will always be errors in these doctrines. Luckily I don't base my beliefs on what futurists believe, but my own study.

[gharfish]

..........I came to this board also not too clear about preterism, and found that the more I learned, the more scripturally consistent it was than futurism. I began my journey years ago as a pre-trib disp. futurist. As I studied this more and more, I came to realized that the pre-trib rapture was unsupportable scripturally speaking. So I became a post-trib disp. futurist. As I studied more, I began to question the whole thing more and studied Historicism and Orthodox Preterism, I found they made much more sense biblically speaking than the wild conjectures of disp. Futurist.

LJ

Has the change from pre-trib disp. futurism to preterism positively effected your "walk" with Jesus ? If so, how so [has it] ?




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[wonbyone]

Isn't it interesting how that happens! I came to this board also not too clear about preterism, and found that the more I learned, the more scripturally consistent it was than futurism. I began my journey years ago as a pre-trib disp. futurist. As I studied this more and more, I came to realized that the pre-trib rapture was unsupportable scripturally speaking. So I became a post-trib disp. futurist. As I studied more, I began to question the whole thing more and studied Historicism and Orthodox Preterism, I found they made much more sense biblically speaking than the wild conjectures of disp. Futurist.

Hey Jo that is the exact way it happened for me as well.

[wonbyone]

Has the change from pre-trib disp. futurism to preterism positively effected your "walk" with Jesus ? If so, how so [has it] ?




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For myself it has honestly opened up the scriptures in a whole new light, the scriptures make much more since now. I was also very pessimistic because of the whole end times scenario, now all I can see is Christ and his church continuing to be victorious and it is an awsome feeling!

[Littlejoe]

Has the change from pre-trib disp. futurism to preterism positively effected your "walk" with Jesus ? If so, how so [has it] ?>

There has been a lot of change over the last few years...this change is just one of a few. Overall, I think it has changed my outlook from "let just hang on till Jesus comes" to, let's quit worrying about it and get involved in changing the world for Christ. I know alot of futurist don't think that way, but I have been guilty of it....(and I have met plenty who do also). I don't panic when I hear about things like: "this beast is a supercomputer that tracks your every spending transaction or controls world wide commerce", or is "Obama the Antichrist?" (Maybe an antichrist but not THE Antichrist). I mean really, if you are a dedicated futurist and want the prophecies to come true, you shouldn't oppose the things that seem to point to the "One World Government" or such things...they are part of God's future plan (so to speak). I can't help feel that all this end times mania is distracting from the message that Christ sets us free...right here in this life as well as the one to come...so let's get out there and proclaim that. Now, I don't want to be guilty of put words in your mouth or any other futurist, so, this may or may not pertain to you. I don't know if this rambling explanation is what you're looking for, but it's all I have of the cuff.

LJ

[Littlejoe]

In all honesty, I could care less about the proper "labels." I'm only drawing conclusions from the arguments being presented by preterists here, and how they derive at these arguments from scripture.

Well, you care less when it's the other guy who's getting labeled... For instance, if you fall to the arminian side of soteriology, then you probably dislike being called a Pelegian...or if standard run of the mill reformed you probably hate being labeled a Hyper Calvinist...so Orthodox Preterist dislike being lumped in with the Hyper Pret's "toxic theology" and heresy.

I'm wondering, just out of curiosity, if people are making the mistake of basing their opinions on what others say.

I'm sorry, is this a question or a statement?

In other words, there are many things about futurist beliefs that I find completely wrong, and things about preterism that I find are portraying scripture accurately.

That's great! Then we definitely have things in common then!

The telltale sign to me is when preterists assume my arguments or put words in my mouth because of what they hear other futurists teach.

I understand, It bothers eveyone when they get lumped in with "all the rest!"

No question about it, if I staked my own beliefs on what Hal Lindsey and the gang teach, I would definitely abandon furtuism. Sometimes you have to allow yourself to step outside the box. This is why I shun "labels' and fixed doctrines, because there will always be errors in these doctrines. Luckily I don't base my beliefs on what futurists believe, but my own study.

Well, you have to understand, YOU started a Futurist thread, and you stated that Preterism' explanation was and I quote:

Preterism, IMO, is a gross raping of scripture into meaningless metaphors which is mostly guesswork."

You also made the statement that the scriptures you brought up have not been even attempted to be explained, which you know isn't true...the fact that you disagree with the explanation doesn't make your assertion true! And it looks like standard trolling tactics, and not like someone who wishes to have reasoned, logical, scriptural base discussions...which is why I have had such an internal debate as to whether to engage you in this thread. I am still unsure of your motives.
When you say your a futurist, then you are associating with a pretty well known set of beliefs, if your's differ from those, the onus in a thread like this would be to spell those out for us so that we don't make the assumption that you believe those things. However, I have seen little in your posts so far in this thread that makes me think that you have strayed very far from the standard beliefs of the Hal Lindsey's, Thomas Ice, Tim LaHaye et. al.

LJ

[seanD]

LittleJoe9763 I agree with you to an extent. But don't forget Jesus pretty much commanded us to keep watch for the signs, so that we wouldn't be caught off guard, unready. I'm afraid that a lot of preterists are using that belief as a false comfort zone. I believe that if and when the stuff hits the fan, it will hit hard and happen instantly all at once (as a thief in the night), and from the signs I'm seeing taking place behind the scenes, seems to indicate this is exactly what will happen.

Another thing that makes me wary are the warnings from Paul and Peter that there would come "scoffers" (2 Peter 3:3-4), basically scoffing at the fact of Jesus' return (which sort of insinuates the issue of eschatology), and that there would be a "falling away" right before the end times approach (2 Thess 2:3). I can only interpret this as Christians "falling away" into false doctrine. I'm not saying that preterism is necessarily this false doctrine, just saying that in the context of what Peter and Paul warned, sort of makes me wonder. One thing about furturists is that they definitely won't get off guard if this stuff that the looney fringes are claiming about our government and the global world does happen.

[jds22]

But don't forget Jesus pretty much commanded us to keep watch for the signs

This is what I used to think. Now I tend to think he was commanding his audience about what was going to happen to them.

Why would he command them to watch for things a few thousand years in the future?

[seanD]

This is what I used to think. Now I tend to think he was commanding his audience about what was going to happen to them.

Why would he command them to watch for things a few thousand years in the future?

Mmmm, because Jesus perhaps knew that his words would be used by future generation of followers?

That's a very odd way of looking at what Jesus taught.

[jds22]

That's a very odd way of looking at what Jesus taught.

As a former futurist, I use to feel the same way. :)

[seanD]

Well, you care less when it's the other guy who's getting labeled... For instance, if you fall to the arminian side of soteriology, then you probably dislike being called a Pelegian...or if standard run of the mill reformed you probably hate being labeled a Hyper Calvinist...so Orthodox Preterist dislike being lumped in with the Hyper Pret's "toxic theology" and heresy.

Well, I'm not experienced and knowledgeable enough about all these doctrines, labels, and titles to know who believes what, and what beliefs fall under what proper label. I can only go by what is being argued by each individual.

Well, you have to understand, YOU started a Futurist thread, and you stated that Preterism' explanation was and I quote:

You're right, and I was wrong to declare that in the beginning. But according to the arguments I've seen, especially from wonbyone, and how he picked and isolated verses out of context in order to interpret them a certain way, I realize that I was absolutely right

[wonbyone]

Well, I'm not experienced and knowledgeable enough about all these doctrines, labels, and titles to know who believes what, and what beliefs fall under what proper label. I can only go by what is being argued by each individual.



You're right, and I was wrong to declare that in the beginning. But according to the arguments I've seen, especially from wonbyone, and how he picked and isolated verses out of context in order to interpret them a certain way, I realize that I was absolutely right

I actually posted commentary by albert barnes and adam clarke it wasn't my words!
By default you as a dispensationalist believe that the church was in error for 1800 years and considering the fact that only 25% of Christianity are dispensational odds are that you are the one who takes scripture out of context.

[seanD]

I actually posted commentary by albert barnes and adam clarke it wasn't my words!
By default you as a dispensationalist believe that the church was in error for 1800 years and considering the fact that only 25% of Christianity are dispensational odds are that you are the one who takes scripture out of context.

I don't know if your percentage is right, nor do I care. But I"m not surprised that you would base your beliefs on the status quo and what "others" believe, as opposed to your own research, analysis, and exegesis of scripture. Doesn't surprise me a bit.