Isreal proof for dispensationalism?

[wonbyone]

Hi wonbyone,

If that is true, then you'll have no problem 1) pointing out the location of THE VALLEY OF HAMON GOG and THE TOWN HAMONAH on a map of Israel... and 2) telling us the CALENDAR DAY which Israel CURRENTLY RECOGNIZES as the ANNIVERSARY of Gog's defeat at God's hands (as they do their deliverance from Haman during Purim).

11 " 'On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east toward [b] the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called THE VALLEY OF HAMON GOG. 12 " 'For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and THE DAY I AM GLORIFIED WILL BE A MEMORABLE DAY FOR THEM, declares the Sovereign LORD. 14 " 'Men will be regularly employed to cleanse the land. Some will go throughout the land and, in addition to them, others will bury those that remain on the ground. At the end of the seven months they will begin their search. 15 As they go through the land and one of them sees a human bone, he will set up a marker beside it until the gravediggers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog. 16 (Also A TOWN CALLED HAMONAH will be there.) And so they will cleanse the land.' (Eze. 39:11-15 NIV)

And 3) if "THE LATTER YEARS" have come and gone, I suppose you should be able to tell us EXACTLY when these took place too.

8 "After many days you will be summoned; in THE LATTER YEARS you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, WHOSE INHABITANTS HAVE BEEN GATHERED FROM MANY NATIONS TO THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL WHICH HAD BEEN A CONTINUAL WASTE; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them. (Eze. 38:8 NASB)

It will also be interesting to see how you explain the FULFILLMENT of this last text (and since Israel has still not accepted Christ as their Messiah, it would seem that Zech. 12:10-11 has not taken place either):

27 "When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. 28 "THEN THEY [ the Jews ] WILL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THEIR GOD because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. 29 "I WILL NOT HIDE MY FACE FROM THEM ANY LONGER, for I WILL HAVE POURED OUT MY SPIRIT ON THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL," declares the Lord GOD. (Eze. 39:27-29 NASB)

There are also other details you should be able to tell us (like the first and last of the 7 years Israel burned Gog's weapons for fuel Eze. 39:9-10 NASB), but you can start with these.



Regards,
xcav8tor

Did you even bother to look at any commentaries other than dispensational ones?

[wonbyone]

Xcav8tor, the only explanation one could come up with to explain your post away would be purely metaphorical. To use this method would deem the scriptures essentially as nothing but metaphorical legend. I don't think most Christians would want to go down that route.

Do you really want to go that route and say the Bible doesn't use metaphores?

[seanD]

Do you really want to go that route and say the Bible doesn't use metaphores?

Of course there is metaphor in the bible, but this is a very slippery slope for the preterist to have to walk. Almost all metaphor, at least imagery that was this extensive or perhaps with a meaning that wasn't obvious, was explained one way or another. To try and explain away the extensive Gog and Magog exposition of Ezekiel that xcav8tor pointed out is walking a very slippery slope. You would have to argue that whole chapters were basically legendary metaphor. By taking this stance, you're entering into some very dangerous territory that appeals to many atheistic viewpoints about the bible.

[wonbyone]

[QUOTE=xcav8tor;2660523]Hi wonbyone,

If that is true, then you'll have no problem 1) pointing out the location of THE VALLEY OF HAMON GOG and THE TOWN HAMONAH on a map of Israel... and 2) telling us the CALENDAR DAY which Israel CURRENTLY RECOGNIZES as the ANNIVERSARY of Gog's defeat at God's hands (as they do their deliverance from Haman during Purim).

Wow for centuries expositors have said that these chapters in Ezekiel are the hardest to interprit I'm glad you got them figured out.

(Eze. 39:11-15 NIV)

Ezekiel 39
The prophet goes on to denounce the Divine judgments against Gog and his army, vv. 1-7; and describes their dreadful slaughter, vv. 8-10, and burial, vv. 11-16, in terms so very lofty and comprehensive, as must certainly denote some very extraordinary interposition of Providence in behalf of the Jews. And to amplify the matter still more, the prophet, with peculiar art and propriety, delays the summoning of all the birds and beasts of prey in nature to feast on the slain, (in allusion to the custom of feasting on the remainder of sacrifices), till after the greater multitudes are buried; to intimate that even the remainder, and as it were the stragglers of such mighty hosts, would be more than sufficient to satisfy their utmost rapacity, vv. 17-20. The remaining verses contain a prediction of the great blessedness of the people of God in Gospel times, and of the stability of the kingdom of Christ, vv. 21-29. It will be proper to remark that the great northern expedition against the natural Israel, described in this and the preceding chapter, is, from its striking resemblance in the main particulars, put by the writer of the Apocalypse, (chap. 20:7-10), for a much more formidable armament of a multitude of nations in the four quarters of the earth against the pure Christian Church, the MYSTICAL Israel; an event still extremely remote, and which it is thought shall immediately precede the destruction of the world by fire, and the general judgment.
—Adam Clarke's Commentary
Ezekiel 39:11
The valley of the passengers on the east of the sea—That is, of Gennesareth, according to the Targum. The valley near this lake or sea is called the Valley of the Passengers, because it was a great road by which the merchants and traders from Syria and other eastern countries went into Egypt; see Genesis 37:17, 25. See Calmet here.
There shall they bury Gog and all his multitude—Some read, "There shall they bury Gog, that is, all his multitude." Not Gog, or Antiochus himself, for he was not in this battle; but his generals, captains, and soldiers, by whom he was represented. As to Hamon-gog, we know no valley of this name but here. But we may understand the words thus: the place where this great slaughter was, and where the multitudes of the slain were buried, might be better called Hamon-gog, the valley of the multitude of God, than the valley of passengers; for so great was the carnage there, that the way of the passengers shall be stopped by it. See the text.
Ezekiel 39:12
And seven months—It shall require a long time to bury the dead. This is another figurative expression; which, however, may admit of a good deal of literal meaning. Many of the Syrian soldiers had secreted themselves in different places during the pursuit after the battle, where they died of their wounds, of hunger, and of fatigue; so that they were not all found and buried till seven months after the defeat of the Syrian army. This slow process of burying is distinctly related in the three following verses, and extended even to a bone, verse 15; which, when it was found by a passenger, the place was marked, that the buriers might see and inter it. Seven months was little time enough for all this work; and in that country putrescency does not easily take place: the scorching winds serving to desiccate the flesh, and preserve it from decomposition.
—Adam Clarke's Commentary

8 "After many days you will be summoned; in THE LATTER YEARS you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, WHOSE INHABITANTS HAVE BEEN GATHERED FROM MANY NATIONS TO THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL WHICH HAD BEEN A CONTINUAL WASTE; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them. (Eze. 38:8 NASB)

Ezekiel 38
The sublime prophecy contained in this and the following chapter relates to Israel's victory over Gog, and is very obscure. It begins with representing a prodigious armament of many nations combined together under the conduct of Gog, with the intention of overwhelming the Jews, after having been for some time resettled in their land subsequent to their return from the Babylonish captivity, vv. 1-9. These enemies are farther represented as making themselves sure of the spoil, vv. 10-13. But in this critical conjuncture when Israel, to all human appearance, was about to be swallowed up by her enemies, God most graciously appears, to execute by terrible judgments the vengeance threatened against these formidable adversaries of his people, vv. 14-16. The prophet, in terms borrowed from human passions, describes, with awful emphasis, the fury of Jehovah as coming up to his face; and the effects of it so dreadful, as to make all the animate and inanimate creation tremble, and even to convulse with terror the whole frame of nature, vv. 17-23.
—Adam Clarke's Commentary
Verse 8. thou shall be visited -- in wrath, by God (Isa 29:6). Probably there is allusion to Isa 24:21, 22, "The host of the high ones . . . shall be gathered . . . as prisoners . . . in me pit . . . and after many days shall they be visited." I therefore prefer English Version to GROTIUS rendering, "Thou shalt get the command" of the expedition. The "after many days" is defined by "in the latter years," that is, in the times just before the coming of Messiah, namely, under Antiochus, before His first coming; under Antichrist, before His second coming.

the mountains of Israel . . . always waste -- that is, waste during the long period of the captivity, the earnest of the much longer period of Judea's present desolation (to which the language "always waste" more fully applies). This marks the impious atrocity of the act, to assail God's people, who had only begun to recover from their protracted calamities.

but it is brought . . . and they shall dwell -- rather, "And they (the Israelites) were brought . . . dwelt safely" [FAIRBAIRN]. English Version means, "Against Israel, which has been waste, but which (that is, whose people) is now (at the time of the invasion) brought forth out of the nations where they were dispersed, and shall be found by the invader dwelling securely, so as to seem an easy prey to him."
—Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
Ezekiel 38:8
In the latter years thou shalt come—This was fulfilled about four hundred years after.—Martin. The expedition of Cambyses against Egypt was about twelve years after the return of the Jews from Babylon. —Calmet.
—Adam Clarke's Commentary

It will also be interesting to see how you explain the FULFILLMENT of this last text (and since Israel has still not accepted Christ as their Messiah, it would seem that Zech. 12:10-11 has not taken place either):

Maybe one of the better versed preterist here can answer that one?

27 "When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. 28 "THEN THEY [ the Jews ] WILL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THEIR GOD because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. 29 "I WILL NOT HIDE MY FACE FROM THEM ANY LONGER, for I WILL HAVE POURED OUT MY SPIRIT ON THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL," declares the Lord GOD. (Eze. 39:27-29 NASB)

Ezekiel 39:27
When I have—gathered them—Antiochus had before captured many of the Jews, and sold them for slaves; see Daniel 11:33.
Ezekiel 39:28
And have left none of then any more there—All that chose had liberty to return; but many remained behind. This promise may therefore refer to a greater restoration, when not a Jew shall be left behind. This, the next verse intimates, will be in the Gospel dispensation.
Ezekiel 39:29
For I have poured out my Spirit—That is, I will pour out my Spirit; see the notes on Ezekiel 36:25-29 (note), where this subject is largely considered. This Spirit is to enlighten, quicken, purify, and cleanse their hearts; so that, being completely changed, they shall become God's people, and be a praise in the earth. Now, they are a proverb of reproach; then, they shall be eminently distinguished.
—Adam Clarke's Commentary

There are also other details you should be able to tell us (like the first and last of the 7 years Israel burned Gog's weapons for fuel Eze. 39:9-10 NASB), but you can start with these.

Notes for Verses 9,10
Verses 9,10. The burning of the foe's weapons implies that nothing belonging to them should be left to pollute the land. The seven years (seven being the sacred number) spent on this work, implies the completeness of the cleansing, and the people's zeal for purity. How different from the ancient Israelites, who left not merely the arms, but the heathen themselves, to remain among them [FAIRBAIRN], (Jud 1:27, 28 Jud 2:2, 3 Ps 106:34-36). The desolation by Antiochus began in the one hundred and forty-first year of the Seleucidæ. From this date to 148, a period of six years and four months ("2300 days," Da 8:14), when the temple-worship was restored (I Maccabees 4:52), God vouchsafed many triumphs to His people; from this time to the death of Antiochus, early in 149, a period of seven months, the Jews had rest from Antiochus, and purified their land, and on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month celebrated the Encænia, or feast of dedication (Joh 10:22) and purification of the temple. The whole period, in round numbers, was seven years. Mattathias was the patriotic Jewish leader, and his third son, Judas, the military commander under whom the Syrian generals were defeated. He retook Jerusalem and purified the temple. Simon and Jonathan, his brothers, succeeded him: the independence of the Jews was secured, and the crown vested in the Asmonean family, in which it continued till Herod the Great.
—Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

[wonbyone]

Of course there is metaphor in the bible, but this is a very slippery slope for the preterist to have to walk. Almost all metaphor, at least imagery that was this extensive or perhaps with a meaning that wasn't obvious, was explained one way or another. To try and explain away the extensive Gog and Magog exposition of Ezekiel that xcav8tor pointed out is walking a very slippery slope. You would have to argue that whole chapters were basically legendary metaphor. By taking this stance, you're entering into some very dangerous territory that appeals to many atheistic viewpoints about the bible.

Ok so Which dispy view do you hold to? Is the battle before or after the millenium? Do you take the wooden weapons literally?

[The Curtmudgeon]

Do you take the wooden weapons literally?

And which would those be, Won? Please show me where in Ezekiel 38-39 it mentions wooden weapons.

The (...waiting for it... ) Curtmudgeon

[gharfish]

Did you even bother to look at any commentaries other than dispensational ones?

What all do you think of that post from xcav8tor is cut from a dispensational commentary ? If it mostly was from one or more, can I ask you what preterist authors you read to bring up issues like wooden weapons, like you just did 25 minutes ago--your latest post, for ex. ? See how that works ? .....& isn't that fair enough too, for both sides ?




>

[eschaton]

Of course there is metaphor in the bible, but this is a very slippery slope for the preterist to have to walk. Almost all metaphor, at least imagery that was this extensive or perhaps with a meaning that wasn't obvious, was explained one way or another. To try and explain away the extensive Gog and Magog exposition of Ezekiel that xcav8tor pointed out is walking a very slippery slope. You would have to argue that whole chapters were basically legendary metaphor. By taking this stance, you're entering into some very dangerous territory that appeals to many atheistic viewpoints about the bible.

Actually, the early church fathers took the opposite approach. There belief was that the true message of the Bible was spiritual (allegorical). That's what my book is about. But as you point out, it is a slippery slope for most moderns because they don't understand it.

[wonbyone]

What all do you think of that post from xcav8tor is cut from a dispensational commentary ? If it mostly was from one or more, can I ask you what preterist authors you read to bring up issues like wooden weapons, like you just did 25 minutes ago--your latest post, for ex. ? See how that works ? .....& isn't that fair enough too, for both sides ?




>

Which is faster typing what you believe or cut and paste what you already believe?

[Obsidian]

And which would those be, Won? Please show me where in Ezekiel 38-39 it mentions wooden weapons

It says they burn the weapons for seven years:

" 'Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel.

Of course there is metaphor in the bible, but this is a very slippery slope for the preterist to have to walk. Almost all metaphor, at least imagery that was this extensive or perhaps with a meaning that wasn't obvious, was explained one way or another. To try and explain away the extensive Gog and Magog exposition of Ezekiel that xcav8tor pointed out is walking a very slippery slope. You would have to argue that whole chapters were basically legendary metaphor. By taking this stance, you're entering into some very dangerous territory that appeals to many atheistic viewpoints about the bible.

It's not that slippery of a slope to say that prophecy uses metaphors. We even have a clear example of Jews misunderstanding prophecy: They rejected their Messiah. Prophecies aren't supposed to be totally clear. If you could tell the future exactly by reading the Bible, you'd have people buying stocks with the info and betting on baseball teams, like in Back to the Future 2.

[wonbyone]

And which would those be, Won? Please show me where in Ezekiel 38-39 it mentions wooden weapons.

The (...waiting for it... ) Curtmudgeon

How about Ezekiel 39:3.

[wonbyone]

What all do you think of that post from xcav8tor is cut from a dispensational commentary ? If it mostly was from one or more, can I ask you what preterist authors you read to bring up issues like wooden weapons, like you just did 25 minutes ago--your latest post, for ex. ? See how that works ? .....& isn't that fair enough too, for both sides ?




>

Actually I was a dispy for 9 years. I have walvoords books, lahayes books, Things to come by pentecost, and geislers systematic theology. What I don't like about any of them is the way they misrepresent other points of view such as amill. I really like demar, mathison, hanegrraff, and steve gregg.

[gharfish]

Actually I was a dispy for 9 years. I have walvoords books, lahayes books, Things to come by pentecost, and geislers systematic theology. What I don't like about any of them is the way they misrepresent other points of view such as amill. I really like demar, mathison, hanegrraff, and steve gregg.

When you have read books by Walvood, you needed some dispys here to address that OP question ?!

I more than answered it in [my] post four, and you asked the very same question again in your post ten. To respond to that same again in my post nineteen was a waste of time. It looks now (to me) like it wasn't on the level.


>

[Obsidian]

Even back before I became a preterist, the dispensational stuff always seemed pretty random and nonsensical to me. I read the first five (or so) Left Behind books and couldn't understand what system the authors were using to derive their interpretation from. And the idea of a rapture always sounded pretty flaky and unbiblical. At one point, I argued with a sunday school teacher about it. I pointed out that God sometimes judged the righteous along with the unrighteous, as in the case of Jeremiah and the various captives.

Eventually, I pretty much gave up trying to understand any of it, until JP Holding converted me to preterism. Even after I accepted the idea that preterism was probably true, I still didn't focus on really any of the specifics until recently. But now, I've gotten into it a good bit.

Of course, now I know what system the dispensationalists use to interpret the end times: Apply every single prophecy in the old and new testament to the end of the world, unless it already had a clear, obvious, and purely literal interpretation in the past (such as certain passages referencing Jesus's first arrival).

According to the dispensationalist mindset, the entire international political structure in north africa, west asia, and southeastern europe is going to look exactly like the combination of numerous historical occurrences. Babylon (the city) will be a significant power; Egypt shall rise again...Syria...Israel (God's supposedly chosen people, even though none of them believe in him, and the ones that do identify as Christians rather than Jews), etc.

[John Goddard]

Eventually, I pretty much gave up trying to understand any of it, until JP Holding converted me to preterism.

Do you mean you were shamed so much with his "riposte" you couldn't take it anymore and gave in?