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Thread: "Legal Pluralism" and Islam.

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    "Legal Pluralism" and Islam.

    siam posted this regarding Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Surah 5, verse 47, and the verses previous to and subsequent to this verse give some context. These verses are talking about the "law" (ethico-moral principles) and explains that communities have been given their own laws as a test (tolerance, compassion, mercy, justice) and we must compete with each other to be the best with what we have been given and in matters of (ethical/moral) differences, God will be the eventual Judge. The Quran argues for what is called Legal Pluralism (...and since religion/Deen is a "way of life"---of Pluralistic systems that give choice rather than mono-culture or single legal systems imposed forcibly on everyone.)
    Now, this is either ignorance[1], or lying(taqiyya[2]) I have a hard time believing ignorance, especially since I had just posted things like, this, this, and this. Those three posts show that the Quran, and Hadith thoroughly contradict this "Legal Pluralism" that siam thinks Islam teaches. Here are some of the more pertinent Islamic sources on the subject.

    Surah 9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    Sahih al-Bukhari 6924—Muhammad said: “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and whoever said La ilaha illahllah, Allah will save his property and his life from me.”

    Sahih Muslim 30—Muhammad said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.”

    Qur’an 5:51—O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

    Qur’an 9:30—And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

    Qur’an 98:6—Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures.

    Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”

    Al-Bukhari, Al-Adab al-Mufrad 1103—Muhammad said: “Do not give the People of the Book the greeting first. Force them to the narrowest part of the road.”

    The above isn't "Legal Pluralism", but commands to fight everyone who does not have specific beliefs. In fact it's the polar opposite of siam's claim.

    1. In this case it would have to be willful since I had just posted all of that information. I mean, I suppose there could be a third option, but I haven't thought of one yet. Any ideas of what other possibility there might be?

    2. Just in case siam claims that taqiyya isn't Islamic, we have the following.

    Surah 3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

    Ibn Kathir had this to say.


    (O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them.) ﴿5:51﴾.

    Allah said, after mentioning the fact that the faithful believers gave their support to the faithful believers among the Muhajirin, Ansar and Bedouins, (And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you do not behave the same, there will be Fitnah and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption.) ﴿8:73﴾.

    Allah said next, (unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.''

    Jalalayn says this.

    Let not the believers take the disbelievers as patrons rather than that is instead of the believers — for whoever does that that is whoever takes them as patrons does not belong to the religion of God in anyway — unless you protect yourselves against them as a safeguard tuqātan ‘as a safeguard’ is the verbal noun from taqiyyatan that is to say unless you fear something in which case you may show patronage to them through words but not in your hearts this was before the hegemony of Islam and the dispensation applies to any individual residing in a land with no say in it. God warns you He instills fear in you of His Self warning that He may be wrathful with you if you take them as patrons; and to God is the journey’s end the return and He will requite you.

    These individuals are hardly "Unislamic".

  2. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
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    You have chosen an interesting subject for conversation---legal pluralism in Islam---but the "sources" are very mixed and several topics have become tangled up together---so lets clear up some points....

    Legal Pluralism and Taqiya are subjects that might merit separate discussions---so presently lets concentrate on legal pluralism.

    in the post, there are--- 1)Ayahs (verses) from the Quran, 2) Hadith (sayings) and 3) Tafsir (exegesis).
    All of these are translations and 1) and 2) are also out of context. It may be easier to use a direct English Tafsir rather than a translated one. M. Asad and Yusuf Ali have direct English Tafsir...there are others too though.....
    Ahadith are very large collections and meaningless without context. Any whim can be defended by using out-of-context hadith---even contradictory positions. The science of ahadith have different catagories of authentications and should be interpreted by scholars. I personally prefer to avoid out-of-context ahadith unless there is good reason to include them. They are far too easy to abuse. Generally, Tafsir by a scholar includes relevant ahadith so there is little need to search for them separately (for Quranic purposes.)

    Another mix up is between the concepts of religion ("Deen"/way of life) and Jurisprudence/law (Specifically "Fiqh", generally "Sharia"). In the case of Islam (and other pre-Modern religions) there was much overlap between religion (ethics, morals, metaphysics) and Laws (Jurisprudence, courts, systems of law) so, in a conversation on this subject we need to be aware of the areas of overlap/divergence.

    thats all I have time for now....hope to come back with more info....

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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    You have chosen an interesting subject for conversation---legal pluralism in Islam---but the "sources" are very mixed and several topics have become tangled up together---so lets clear up some points....

    Legal Pluralism and Taqiya are subjects that might merit separate discussions---so presently lets concentrate on legal pluralism.

    in the post, there are--- 1)Ayahs (verses) from the Quran, 2) Hadith (sayings) and 3) Tafsir (exegesis).
    All of these are translations and 1) and 2) are also out of context. It may be easier to use a direct English Tafsir rather than a translated one. M. Asad and Yusuf Ali have direct English Tafsir...there are others too though.....
    Ahadith are very large collections and meaningless without context. Any whim can be defended by using out-of-context hadith---even contradictory positions. The science of ahadith have different catagories of authentications and should be interpreted by scholars. I personally prefer to avoid out-of-context ahadith unless there is good reason to include them. They are far too easy to abuse. Generally, Tafsir by a scholar includes relevant ahadith so there is little need to search for them separately (for Quranic purposes.)

    Another mix up is between the concepts of religion ("Deen"/way of life) and Jurisprudence/law (Specifically "Fiqh", generally "Sharia"). In the case of Islam (and other pre-Modern religions) there was much overlap between religion (ethics, morals, metaphysics) and Laws (Jurisprudence, courts, systems of law) so, in a conversation on this subject we need to be aware of the areas of overlap/divergence.

    thats all I have time for now....hope to come back with more info....
    The Quran only has immediate context, unless you bring in Tafsir and ahadith, which is what I did. I can bring more context, but it doesn't help your position, it just makes things worse. Let's start with Surah 9:29, and go through the various contexts. I'll even use Yusuf Ali translation since you approved of it here. The Hadith have ratings like sahih(authentic), Hasan(good), Da'if(weak), and Maudu'(fabricated). When you put a whole hadith you get the context with it, and depending on where you source it, you get the rating as well. Sahih Muslim 4366 for example, has only the addition of who transmitted it, and the name of the book heading for "context". The book heading is "The Book of Jihad, and Expedition". That doesn't tell us much, unless you look at everything that 'Umar b. al-Khattib, transmitted, and his history.

    9:28 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

    The above verse is part of the immediate context of Surah 9 ayat 29. It's saying that all pagans are to be kept our of Mecca, and especially the Kabba once the year ends. The reason they aren't allowed in is they are unclean, but why would the Muslims fear poverty? Because Mecca had been a major source of income through the pagans coming to perform their rituals. That along with being in the middle of a trading route were quite useful to them. Both of those forms of income had been cut off.Now, how were they to make money with their major forms of income cut off? The next verse tells us.

    9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    Wow, they are supposed to fight random unbelievers, even Christians and Jews(aka the "People of the Book"), until they pay Jizya, or join Islam. The former money source is obvious, the latter slightly less. Those who join Islam are required to pay Zakat. Which means, as long as they are successfully fighting people they will have a steady flow of income. So much for a "live and let live" attitude.

    Note, the listed reasons to fight are all based on beliefs, and not any aggression against the Muslim community.

    9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah.s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

    These are reasons given to fight "the People of the Book", and because of what they are said to believe. So far the context isn't helping your case siam.

    9:31 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

    This one is especially interesting since Christians are commanded to judge the Quran by the Gospel, and the Gospel clearly teaches the divinity of Jesus Christ, and the concept of the Trinity. Jesus repeatedly claimed things for Himself that can only truly be said of God, He accepted worship, He identified Himself with God's Wisdom, and even the Jews of His time accused Him of blasphemy for these very things. His claims weren't obscure, they were quite blunt.

    9:32 Fain would they extinguish Allah.s light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).

    Notice the "with their mouths". This means they are speaking out against Islam, not physically attacking Muslims.

    9:33 It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

    This is basically saying that Islam will rule over all, even though unbelievers hate it. Let's look at the historical context next.

    Ibn Kathir: Battles of the Prophet-The Battle of Tabuk. Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.

    Ibn Kathir: Tafsir 9:28, 9:29, 9:30

    This passage, the numerous other calls to Jihad, Mohammed's views on Jihad, and the history of the Muslim community are quite clear that "Legal Pluralism" in Islam is nothing but a fiction.You may be able to cobble together such a teaching if you cherry pick verses, and use them out of context, but I'm not willing to do that, despite your claim that I have already done so.

    You would think a "clear book[1]" that is supposedly "expounded in detail[2]" would be a little easier to study.

    1. 2:1 A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book.
    2. 11:1 A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things):

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    Legal Pluralism = is the existence of multiple legal systems within one human population or geographical area.

    For example, in geographical areas controlled by a Caliph/Sultan, the Muslim communities used Sharia courts, the Jews and Christians used their own laws and courts....activities such as marriages, divorces, trade disputes, inheritance...and so on...were managed in these systems. There was also the Qanun or Imperial law which dealt with matters such as foreign affairs, military, taxes...etc.

    The Prophet was a merchant (International trade) and would have been aware that different groups had different laws...so legal pluralism would have been familiar.
    The Quran does contain some examples of law but it is not a book of Law. Sharia/Fiqh have several sources...Quran, Sunnah (practices and sayings of the Prophet), Ijma/Shura (Consensus), Qiyas/Ijtihad (reasoning), al-Istislah (public interest), al-Urf (customs, norms). The different schools of Sharia give different weight to these sources thereby arriving at rulings that make up their particular school of law.

    Quran provides principles but Islamic moral system is not a binary system (right/wrong) but has 5 categories ranging from permissible, commendable, normative, disapproved, not permissible. For example eating pork is not permissible but the preservation of life is more important than dietary concerns therefore in certain conditions, eating pork is permitted.....

    Islam posits that there are certain "rights" given by God and it is our duty to preserve those rights---one of these rights is that of religion/ way of life/conscience. (Maqasid al sharia). Free-will is a God-given right and to take it away by force is oppression. Therefore, justice requires that the right to practice Deen/conscience/way of life, be preserved. To this end, many religious practices....including the various eastern Christianities were preserved.

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    5:42 (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allah loveth those who judge in equity.

    5:43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

    5:44 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

    5:45 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

    5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

    5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

    5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

    The context of the verses become more clear if the surah is read as a whole....but lack of space...as verse 42 indicates, the Jews are allowed to use Islamic/Sharia courts or laws if they so choose...but they can also use God's laws entrusted to them. ( verse 43)...and verse 46, 47 goes on to say Christians can also use God's law (both Jewish laws and any principles from the injil/ teachings of Prophet Jesus). Sacred scriptures and the messengers who bring them are a guidance from God. He/it has given us diversity so that we may grow in compassion, mercy, tolerance and truly understand the concept of unity/brotherhood of humanity.....

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    Surah 5 verses 50, 51,52.

    5:50 Do they then seek a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah.

    5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

    5:52 Those in whose hearts is a disease - thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts.

    Among the purposes of Sharia is the preservation of property....however, the preservation of Deen/conscience has more weight than the preservation of property....therefore....as verse 50 indicates....Muslims should not follow the customs of the old tribalism and make alliances for the preservation of wealth/property to the detriment of Deen/conscience....rather, they should allow for the new Guidance based on Justice and mutual respect. (In this context, Taqiya is the idea that the preservation of life is more important than the temporary preservation of conscience/deen and in circumstances that require one to make a choice, one should choose to preserve life.)

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    Ibn Kathir's commentary on 5:41,-5:52.

    Some notable excerpts here. My comments in green.

    What is the ruling that you find in the Tawrah for adultery) hThey said, "We expose them, carry them (on donkeys) backwards and parade them in public.'' The Prophet recited; (Bring here the Tawrah and recite it, if you are truthful.) So they brought the Tawrah and read from it until the reader reached the verse about stoning. Then he placed his hand on that verse and read what was before and after it. `Abdullah bin Salam, who was with the Messenger of Allah , said, "Order him to remove his hand,'' and he removed his hand and under it was the verse about stoning. So the Messenger of Allah commanded that the adulterers be stoned, and they were stoned. `Abdullah bin `Umar said, "I was among those who stoned them and I saw the man shading the woman from the stones with his body.'' Abu Dawud recorded that Ibn `Umar said, "Some Jews came to the Messenger of Allah and invited him to go to the Quff area. So he went to the house of Al-Midras and they said, `O Abu Al-Qasim! A man from us committed adultery with a woman, so decide on their matter.' They arranged a pillow for the Messenger of Allah and he sat on it and said, (Bring the Tawrah to me.) He was brought the Tawrah and he removed the pillow from under him and placed the Tawrah on it, saying, (I trust you and He Who revealed it to you.) He then said, (Bring me your most knowledgeable person.) So he was brought a young man... '' and then he mentioned the rest of the story that Malik narrated from Nafi`. These Hadiths state that the Messenger of Allah issued a decision that conforms with the ruling in the Tawrah, not to honor the Jews in what they believe in, for the Jews were commanded to follow the Law of Muhammad only. Rather, the Prophet did this because Allah commanded him to do so. He asked them about the ruling of stoning in the Tawrah to make them admit to what the Tawrah contains and what they collaborated to hide, deny and exclude from implementing for all that time. They had to admit to what they did, although they did it while having knowledge of the correct ruling. What made them go to the Prophet for judgement in this matter was their lusts and desires, hoping that the Prophet would agree with their opinion, not that they believed in the correctness of his judgment.

    Notice the underlined. Mohammed says he trusts the Torah, keep this in mind for the rest of the tafsir.

    (Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein.) meaning, so that He judges the people of the Injil by it in their time. Or, the Ayah means, so that they believe in all that is in it and adhere to all its commands, including the good news about the coming of Muhammad and the command to believe in and follow him when he is sent.

    Either of these meanings means that the Gospel is abrogated now. It also claims that the Gospel foretells Mohammed's coming, which is completely false. No such mentioning is made in either the Torah, or the "Injil". So much for trusting the Torah.


    Allah mentioned the Tawrah that He sent down to His Prophet Musa, the one whom He spoke directly to, praising it, commanding that it should be implemented, before it was abrogated. Allah then mentioned the Injil, praised it and commanded its people to adhere to it and follow it, as we stated. He next mentioned the Glorious Qur'an that He sent down to His honorable servant and Messenger. Allah said, (And We have sent down to you the Book in truth...) meaning, with the truth that, no doubt, is coming from Allah, (confirming the Scripture that came before it) meaning, the Divinely Revealed Books that praised the Qur'an and mentioned that it would be sent down from Allah to His servant and Messenger Muhammad . The Qur'an was revealed as was foretold in the previous Scriptures. This fact increased faith in the previous Scriptures for the sincere who have knowledge of these Scriptures, those who adhered to Allah's commands and Laws and believed in His Messengers. Allah said, (Say: "Believe in it or do not believe (in it). Verily, those who were given knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration.'' And they say: "Glory be to our Lord! Truly, the promise of our Lord must be fulfilled.'') meaning that they say, the promise of our Lord, concerning the coming of Muhammad by the words of His previous Messengers, will certainly be fulfilled. Allah's statement, (and Muhayminan over it) means entrusted over it, according to Sufyan Ath-Thawri who narrated it from Abu Ishaq from At-Tamimi from Ibn `Abbas. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Muhaymin is, `the Trustworthy'. Allah says that the Qur'an is trustworthy over every Divine Book that preceded it.'' This was reported from `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Mujahid, Muhammad bin Ka`b, `Atiyyah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, As-Suddi and Ibn Zayd. Ibn Jarir said, "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Al-Walibi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `Witness'. Mujahid, Qatadah and As-Suddi said the same. Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `dominant over the previous Scriptures'. These meanings are similar, as the word Muhaymin includes them all. Consequently, the Qur'an is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it. This Glorious Book, which Allah revealed as the Last and Final Book, is the most encompassing, glorious and perfect Book of all times. The Qur'an includes all the good aspects of previous Scriptures and even more, which no previous Scripture ever contained. This is why Allah made it trustworthy, a witness and dominant over all Scriptures. Allah promised that He will protect the Qur'an and swore by His Most Honorable Self, (Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).) Allah said, (So judge between them by what Allah has revealed.) The Ayah commands: O Muhammad! Rule between the people, Arabs and non-Arabs, lettered and unlettered, by what Allah has revealed to you in this Glorious Book and what it approves of for you from the Law of the previous Prophets, as Ibn Jarir said. Ibn Abi Hatim reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "The Prophet had the choice to judge between them or to turn away from them and refer them to their own Law. Then this Ayah was revealed, (So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires. ..) and he was commanded to judge between them by our Book.''.

    So, the Muslims were commanded to only accept that which agrees with the Quran from the Torah and Injil, and Allah also promised to preserve the Quran from corruption. Why couldn't he do this for the Torah and Injil? Weren't they also his words? Aren't Allah's words unchangeable? Of course, since Allah wasn't able to preserve[1] the Quran, it's not shock he wasn't able to preserve his other revelations.

    Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this, And if any among you befriends them, then surely he is one of them.) Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that `Umar ordered Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari to send him on one sheet of balance the count of what he took in and what he spent. Abu Musa then had a Christian scribe, and he was able to comply with `Umar's demand. `Umar liked what he saw and exclaimed, "This scribe is proficient. Would you read in the Masjid a letter that came to us from Ash-Sham'' Abu Musa said, `He cannot.'' `Umar said, "Is he not pure'' Abu Musa said, "No, but he is Christian.'' Abu Musa said, "So `Umar admonished me and poked my thigh (with his finger), saying, `Drive him out (from Al-Madinah).' He then recited, (O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends...)'' Then he reported that `Abdullah bin `Utbah said, "Let one of you beware that he might be a Jew or a Christian, while unaware.''

    So, not only are Jews and Christians cursed, but Muslims are not allowed to have them as friends. They aren't even allowed to have Christians or Jews serve them in ways that would be useful to the Muslim community. Not only that, but you can actually be a Jew or Christian, and not even know it. All of this, by simply having a Jew or Christian as a friend. Remember, according to the Quran the Jews and Christians(and other unbelievers) are the "worst of creatures".

    Ibn Kathir, Surah 98 Allah informs of what will happen to the wicked disbelievers among the People of the Scripture and the idolators who oppose the Allah's divinely revealed Books and the Prophets whom He sent. He says that they will be in the fire of Hell on the Day of Judgement and they will abide therein forever. This means that they will remain in it and they will have no way out of it and they will not cease being in it. (They are the worst of creatures.) meaning, they are the worst creation that Allah has fashioned and created. Then Allah informs about the situation of the righteous people who believed in their hearts and performed righteous deeds with their bodies. He says that they are the best of creation. Abu Hurayrah and a group of the scholars have used this Ayah as a proof that the believers have a status among the creatures that is better than the angels. This is because Allah says, (They are the best of creatures.)

    We are lower than dogs according to the Quran. Why? Because we don't accept Islam. Muslims however, are better than the angels. So much for the rejection of a "chosen people" in Islam.

    When you take the immediate context, the historical context, and the extended literary context together, the Quran calls for the violent subjugation of all non-Muslims. It commands a global conquest, and an eventual ruling of the entire world by Sharia law.

    As for taqiyya, it's more than just about saving lives, as my previous quotations show. It's about concealing the truth about Islam, and it's true goals. Any lie that furthers Islam is allowed, like when Mohammed allowed his followers to lie in order to assassinate one of his critics.


    Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:
    Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:

    That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."

    Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 271:
    Narrated Jabir:

    The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)."

    Neither of those examples have anything to do with saving someone's own life by pretending to not be Muslims. Not saying taqiyyah can't be used in that manner, just that it's not nearly the only accepted method.

    ETA: Oops, forgot this part.

    1. The Quran has lost verses, and even whole chapters according to the Hadith, and then you have the Uthmanic Recension .

    Sahih Muslim 3422

    'Amra reported that she beard 'A'isha (Allah he pleased with her) discussing fosterage which (makes marriage) unlawful; and she ('A'isha) said: There was revealed in the Holy Qur'an ten clear sucklings, and then five clear (sucklings).


    One or two doesn't work either, it has to be at minimum 5.

    Sahih Muslim 3414

    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her), Suwaid and Zubair reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: One suckling or two do not make (marriage) unlawful.

    The verse on stoning was lost as well. Both were eaten by a sheep. So much for Allah's promise to protect the Quran from corruption. He couldn't even stop a sheep from eating the verses.
    For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

    Fortunately Aisha was there to tell us about these teachings.



    Sunan Ibn Majah 1944 It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
    “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed1, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”
    1: These verses were abrogated in recitation but not ruling. Other ahadith establish the number for fosterage to be 5.
    Last edited by Cerebrum123; 11-21-2016 at 02:38 PM.

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    tWebber
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    You have put in a lot of effort and time which I appreciate. There are points raised that are not relevant to the topic of legal pluralism...but that is ok with me....I will address those that interest me....
    ...but first....
    Legal Pluralism---the Quran (Quranic principles) are to be a "part" of life (the way)....as such, the Sunnah of the Prophet (including the ahadith) are a good example of how the Quran/Quranic principles were understood and applied. The Charter of Medina and the Treaty with the Christians of Mt Sinai are good examples of how the Quranic principles were understood and implemented by the Prophet.

    However, before going into that---some background on the situation that existed before Quranic principles were put in practice....

    "Karen Armstrong explains aptly the mentality and workings of the tribal system dispersed through war-torn Arabia, where the Prophet was striving for peace (Armstrong 2006, 19). (Armstro“The tribe, not a deity, was of supreme value, and each member had to subordinate his or her personal needs and desires to the well-being of the group and to fight to the death, if necessary, to ensure its survival”ng 2006, 24). Such a system was, in a political sense, representative of the little cooperation between the tribes in the Yathrib. In this region reigned power hungry strategies, an emphasis on arms and strength in military, and a belief that clearly mediation was unachievable except by a trustworthy outsider who had no connections to the issues or the tribes. Not only did the Prophet fit these prerequisites, but his personal ambition as given to him by God was also one of spreading peace and unity, creating a community, or ummah, made up of diverse groups, through the teachings of the Quran and in the name of Islam."
    https://themuslimtimes.info/2012/11/...lism-in-islam/

    The Charter of Medina gave the right to Jews to practice their own "way of life" (religion), it also made them part of the "Ummah"(community) replacing (the old) tribal loyalty to that of a community (of faith) who co-operated in mutual respect of one another. It set out rights and responsibilities of the various tribes that made up the "Ummah"

    There were many treaties with various christian groups...one example is the treaty with the Christian community at Mt Sinai...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtiname_of_Muhammad
    in which the Prophet gives protection to the Christians and exempts the Christian holy men and Judges from paying taxes.

    Also, the Christian King of Abyssinia gave refuge to Meccan Muslims fleeing persecution (613 CE, 615 CE).

    the advice against taking some types of people as guardians/protectors is conditional------
    ...as Surah 5 verse 57 further explains---"O you who believe! take not as protectors those who take your religion for mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the scripture before you, or among those who reject faith: but fear God if you have faith."

    In light of the whole of Surah 5 (which provides context) as well as the Sunnah (which elaborates the context and provides examples of the application of Quranic concepts)---the meanings of the verses of Surah 5 are pretty clear. The "goal" of Quranic principles is to provide Guidance to humanity so that we may achieve peace (salaam) through balance and harmony---because God created all things in balance and harmony and this is the "natural" state of all creation including individual human beings and humanity as a social group. As Surah 5 verse 69 points out---"Those who believe (in Quran), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), the Sabians the Christians, any who believe in God and the last day , and work righteousness,-on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    Ibn Kathir/story about adultury---It is an interesting anecdote but it has not much to do with the overall point on Quranic principles....it perhaps highlights that there are differences between Jewish law (Halaka) and Sharia.....

    Gospel is abrogated---Muslims do not study either the Torah or Gospel---we look to the Quran for Guidance and it is understood that the Torah is for the Jews and the Gospel for the Christians. These are your books/scriptures not ours....so there is no issue of abrogation for Muslims as they were never our scriptures to begin with...(though they are Guidance sent by the One God.)

    Why did God not preserve the Torah or Injil?---1) because the responsibility of their preservation was given to the community (and they failed) 2) The Quran is the last book of Guidance sent from God, no more will be sent----therefore he/it has taken the responsibility of its preservation.

    "Quran calls for the violent subjugation of all non-Muslims. It commands a global conquest, and an eventual ruling of the entire world by Sharia law. "---Some people are fond of this claim---It may be a projection of their own intentions/conscience onto a scapegoat, or, perhaps a comic-book like fantasy of some great, grand, evil lurking out there ready to get them......
    History shows that varieties of Christianities still exist in what was called the Islamic Empires when they vanished from what was referred to as "Christendom"....also, perhaps the sentence more accurately reflects "Modernity" and the ideas of Nation-State and the concept of Secularism? after all, most/all? geographical territories are "nation-state" with laws made by the governments (by the elites for the elites)?--and certainly these ideas came along with a lot of violence---either as revolutions or as colonization projects?....or not---there are many perspectives......
    Last edited by siam; 11-22-2016 at 04:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    You have put in a lot of effort and time which I appreciate. There are points raised that are not relevant to the topic of legal pluralism...but that is ok with me....I will address those that interest me....

    snip
    And, with this post you threw out what little credibility you had with me. You're ignoring my main points, grabbing sources from Islamic history out of their context, and accused me of "projecting" on an extremely disturbing and violent issue. One I've given quite a few sources of Mohammed[1] himself engaging in. They just scratch the surface by the way. You're no longer merely ignorant of these examples, as I've shown them to you here on TWeb, even in this very thread. That leaves either willful blindness, or taqiyyah. I'm not sure which is worse.

    One last thing you should think over siam. Mohammed accepted the Gospel and Torah that existed in his time as being accurate. He accepted it as the words of Allah, which the Quran says can't be changed by anyone. Your assertion that the Torah and Gospel were corrupted portray Allah as either deceptive[1], incompetent, or both. It's deceptive because the Quran is rather clear the these works were Allah's word, but if that's true, then they couldn't be changed or corrupted. Unless Allah lied in the Quran about the Gospel being his word. If it's because of your ad hoc reasoning, then Allah isn't omniscient as the Quran claims. In fact, he was so unaware of the human nature that he created, that he couldn't foresee that his words would be corrupted, and almost immediately after being revealed. This corruption led to the largest "false religion" in history according to Islam. Not only that, but Allah was unable to protect the Quran from corruption despite his promise otherwise, so why should you believe anything he says?

    This is where Islamic theology self destructs. Either the Bible(Torah and Gospel together), is the inspired, preserved, authoritative word of Allah, or it's are not. If it is the word of Allah, then Islam is false, because the Quran completely contradicts the Bible. If the Bible is not the word of Allah, then Islam is false, because the Quran affirms inspiration, preservation, and authority of the Bible repeatedly.

    Surah 29:46 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

    Surah 3:3-4 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

    Surah 18:27 And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.

    Surah 7:157 "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

    Surah 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

    Surah 5:68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

    Surah 10:94 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
    1. Mohammed planned on conquering the world in the name of Allah before he left Mecca according to At Tabari.

    At-Tabari, Volume VI, p. 95—Abu Talib sent for the Messenger of Allah, and when he came in he said, "Nephew, here are the shaykhs and nobles of your tribe. They have asked for justice against you, that you should desist from reviling their gods and they will leave you to your god." "Uncle," he said, "shall I not summon them to something which is better for them than their gods?" "What do you summon them to?" he asked. He replied, "I summon them to utter a saying through which the Arabs will submit to them and they will rule over the non-Arabs." Abu Jahl said from among the gathering, "What is it, by your father? We will give you it and ten like it." He answered, "That you should say, 'There is no deity but Allah.'"

    At-Tabari, Volume VI, pp. 101-2—I said to him, "What was the worst attack you saw by Quraysh upon the Messenger of God when they openly showed their enmity to him?" He replied, "I was with them when their nobles assembled one day in the Hijr and discussed the Messenger of God. They said, 'We have never seen the like of what we have endured from this man. He has derided our traditional values, abused our forefathers, reviled our religion, caused devision among us, and insulted our gods. We have endured a great deal from him,' or words to that effect. While they were saying this, the Messenger of God suddenly appeared and walked up and kissed the Black Stone. Then he passed by them while performing the circumambulation, and as he did so they made some slanderous remarks about him. I could see from the Messenger of God's face that he had heard them, but he went on. When he passed the second time they made similar remarks, and I could see from his face that he had heard them, but again he went on. Then he passed them the third time, and they made similar remarks; but this time he stopped and said, "Hear, men of Quraysh. By Him in whose hand Muhammad's soul rests, I have brought you slaughter.' They were gripped by what he had said, and it was as though every man of them had a bird perched on his head; even those of them who had been urging the severest measures against him previously spoke in a conciliatory way to him, using the politest expressions they could think of, and said, 'Depart in true guidance, Abu al-Qasim; by God, you were never ignorant.'

    Surah 9:111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

    Sahih al-Bukhari 6924—Muhammad said: “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and whoever said La ilaha illahllah, Allah will save his property and his life from me.

    Sahih Muslim 30—Muhammad said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.”

    Sahih Mulim 2889 Thauban reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said:
    Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake. And I have seen its eastern and western ends. And the dominion of my Ummah would reach those ends which have been drawn near me and I have been granted the red and the white treasure and I begged my Lord for my Ummah that it should not be destroyed because of famine, nor be dominated by an enemy who is not amongst them to take their lives and destroy them root and branch, and my Lord said: Muhammad, whenever I make a decision, there is none to change it. I grant you for your Ummah that it would not be destroyed by famine and it would not be dominated by an enemy who would not be amongst it and would take their lives and destroy them root and branch even if all the people from the different parts of the world join hands together (for this purpose), but it would be from amongst them, viz. your Ummah, that some people would kill the others or imprison the others.

    I'm not "projecting", you're in denial.

    2. The Quran portrays Allah as deceptive either way actually. He's said to be the greatest of deceivers, and that believers fear the deception of Allah.

    Surah 3:54 And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

    Surah 7:99 Did they then feel secure against the plan of Allah.- but no one can feel secure from the Plan of Allah, except those (doomed) to ruin!

    Surah 8:30 Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.

    Surah 13:42 Those before them did (also) devise plots; but in all things the master- planning is Allah.s He knoweth the doings of every soul: and soon will the Unbelievers know who gets home in the end.

    The Successors of the Messenger Book One, page 99. "Although he had such a faith, which was too great to suffice all the inhabitants of the earth, he was afraid that his heart might go astray. So, he used to utter, while weeping: ‘Would that I have been a bitten tree!’ Whenever he was reminded of his position in Allah’s sight, he would say: ‘By Allah! I would not rest assured and feel safe from the deception of Allah (la amanu limakr Allah), even if I had one foot in paradise.’"

    The word Yusuf Ali translates as "plans" is makr, which is a word better rendered as "deceit". So much for Yusuf Ali being a "literal translation".

    I'm done here, you can have the last word.

  11. Amen One Bad Pig, rogue06 amen'd this post.
  12. #10
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    And, with this post you threw out what little credibility you had with me. You're ignoring my main points, grabbing sources from Islamic history out of their context, and accused me of "projecting" on an extremely disturbing and violent issue. One I've given quite a few sources of Mohammed[1] himself engaging in. They just scratch the surface by the way. You're no longer merely ignorant of these examples, as I've shown them to you here on TWeb, even in this very thread. That leaves either willful blindness, or taqiyyah. I'm not sure which is worse.

    One last thing you should think over siam. Mohammed accepted the Gospel and Torah that existed in his time as being accurate. He accepted it as the words of Allah, which the Quran says can't be changed by anyone. Your assertion that the Torah and Gospel were corrupted portray Allah as either deceptive[1], incompetent, or both. It's deceptive because the Quran is rather clear the these works were Allah's word, but if that's true, then they couldn't be changed or corrupted. Unless Allah lied in the Quran about the Gospel being his word. If it's because of your ad hoc reasoning, then Allah isn't omniscient as the Quran claims. In fact, he was so unaware of the human nature that he created, that he couldn't foresee that his words would be corrupted, and almost immediately after being revealed. This corruption led to the largest "false religion" in history according to Islam. Not only that, but Allah was unable to protect the Quran from corruption despite his promise otherwise, so why should you believe anything he says?

    This is where Islamic theology self destructs. Either the Bible(Torah and Gospel together), is the inspired, preserved, authoritative word of Allah, or it's are not. If it is the word of Allah, then Islam is false, because the Quran completely contradicts the Bible. If the Bible is not the word of Allah, then Islam is false, because the Quran affirms inspiration, preservation, and authority of the Bible repeatedly.


    I'm done here, you can have the last word.
    Some perspectives are strongly binary---either/or and no other options, right or wrong, us or them,...etc. The Quranic world-view is NOT binary. The Quran explains that God sent many Messengers throughout time and geography (some biblical and some non-biblical). Thus, the Islamic perspective has been that all knowledge, regardless of it being from Egyptian civilization, Persian civilization, Chinese civilization, Indian civilization or the Greeks---Wisdom that aligns with the Quran is truth, that which does not, is error. This is the same for the Zabur, Torah and Injil (and any other sacred books, wisdom teachings or philosophies.)

    The Quran explains that though sacred scriptures were sent from God, they were corrupted over time---and this has been the Islamic position from the beginning. Why did God give the responsibility for their preservation to human beings?---the same reason God asked Prophet Adam not to eat of the tree, or allowed Prophet Abraham to have a dream about killing his son...or any number of other things. Our life here on earth is a test---and it is through our choices that we determine our intentions...which then color our actions. So why is the Quran preserved? Because there will not be any more sacred scripture from God. This is the final Guidance. If God had determined to send another Guidance---humanity would still be able to correct itself even if the Quran were to become corrupted---but if God has determined not to send other Guidance---then Justice requires that there be a correct Guidance for humanity to follow. (---this is probably why Prophet Jesus is called the Messiah in the Quran---the last Prophet sent to the Jews. There will be no other.)

    The Quran has been preserved. As a Muslim, it would be my duty to verify the claims of the preservation of the Quran to the best of my ability---and these have been to my satisfaction. Therefore, I have no problems accepting the authenticity of the Quran, and its claims and teachings/Guidance. I also have no problem accepting other wisdom teachings ---such as from the Torah or Gospel---if they align with the Quran or with Tawheed.

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