Dear Jehovah's Witnesses

[headheart]

Here is a little bit more about Matt Fenn ( Zanetsugan) from Pondering Christ. (Also check the links in my signature.)

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

[headheart]

The kingdom of God is within each and every one of us. Read your Bible for proof of that. There are many, very many, too numerous writings to support this, open your eyes and your heart within the Kingdom will open also.

Regards
Gatsby

Go within and you will discover how to please God, but as I said before, no one, not one single one can curry favour with God. I do though agree that it is good that people will try and do their very best to love thy neighbour as yourself. Because YOUR neighnbour IS yourself. Not that I expect you to understand or agree with that.

I too wish you peace as you go on your way.

Regards
Gatsby

Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed,the kingdom of God is 1 in your midst.” 2

Notes:

1 tn This is a present tense in the Greek text. In contrast to waiting and looking for the kingdom, it is now available.
2 tn This is a far better translation than “in you.” Jesus would never tell the hostile Pharisees that the kingdom was inside them. The reference is to Jesus present in their midst. He brings the kingdom. Another possible translation would be “in your grasp.” For further discussion and options, see D. L. Bock, Luke (BECNT), 2:1414-19

Luke 17 NET Bible

Attachment 82036

Gatsby,

Here is a sample of a lecture I studied some years ago, about Proof Texts . You won't find it on the internet, but it makes the point.

There are cults, established religious groups, and well meaning but untaught believers who practice a common approach to Scripture. It is a PROOF TEXT approach, so called because a belief is based upon a Scripture text here or there with little or no regard for the context in which it lies.
Such PROOF TEXTS quite often have a word similarity to a certain belief, and the individual using the PROOF TEXT ties the belief in with this word similarity, --- and their doctrine is proven!

eg.

a. "There is not judgement or life after death..."
PROOF TEXT : Ecclesiastes 9:5
b. "There can be no trinity! Christ even said so..."
PROOF TEXT : John 14:28
c. "Baptism for the dead is a Biblical teaching..."
PROOF TEXT : 1 Corinthians 15:29

Do you see the way in which these errors are supported by the Bible? Discussing PROOF TEXTS is not of any value with people like this. What they lack is a Biblical approach to what they believe, and it is here that we need to begin. To begin elsewhere is to get into a game of Bible ping pong, in which verses are traded until one of the two people runs out of verses...

A PROOF TEXT, OUT OF CONTEXT, IS A PRETEXT!

From: Kalk Bay Bible Institute :What is your Bible? courtesy Pastor Neil Henry

He was a very knowledgeable young man and was well able to argue with the Greek experts and long standing members of the forum. Hardly what I would imagine to be someone who was brainwashed! He was just blind to the truth about Jesus Christ.

So who do you believe Jesus is ?

So, Gatsby based on what you have presented me below, which proof texts do you rely on to support your idea about Jesus?

You ask me who do I believe Jesus is or was as the case may be.

Jesus was human and Divine. He was a man and had traits common to all men and women, he was no different from us. However, Jesus attained his rightfull spiritual place as Son of God by letting the Christ mind/consciousness within him, rise and minister to the people through him. By that I mean teach and heal and more.

Jesus showed us how to be One with God as He was. He was the greatest prophet of all time and his life was meant as a example to us to love one another and love God who is within each one of us.

Is Jesus still alive spiritually? Yes, most certainly because Spirit can neither be hurt or die.

Regards
Gatsby

Go within and you will discover how to please God, but as I said before, no one, not one single one can curry favour with God. I do though agree that it is good that people will try and do their very best to love thy neighbour as yourself. Because YOUR neighnbour IS yourself. Not that I expect you to understand or agree with that.

I too wish you peace as you go on your way.

Regards
Gatsby

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer.

[headheart]

Final Post: Was Jesus an arch-angel ? ( do you agree with Matt's confession or Oprah and Friends )

[Gatsby]

Thanks. Gatsby.

This is the story of the young man, I referred to in posts 3, 5 and 13.
Matthew Fenn (Zanetsugan) - All Along The Watchtower : A Former Jehovah's Witness Gives A Guided Tour of Watchtower Theology. ( His website : Pondering Christ )

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

--------------------------------
Zanetsugan's first post as a Jehovah's Witness to Apologetics.com
Scriptures - Jesus Christ is not God (2006)
Zanetsugan's last post as a born again Christian to Apologetics.com
Jehovah's Witnesses ( 2007)

Ok Eric, I shall take a look at the posts you mention when I have time. What I will say just now though is that I studied the Bible with the J.W's for nigh on 2 yrs or more and duly came to the conclusion that they are subtley brainwashed, although they would never admit that nor see things that way.

I came to realise that actually they knew nothing of God except what they had changed to suit their purpose taking the Bible as their starting point. However, as I said I will look at the posts mentioned.

Thanks Gatsby

[Gatsby]

Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed,the kingdom of God is 1 in your midst.” 2

Notes:

1 tn This is a present tense in the Greek text. In contrast to waiting and looking for the kingdom, it is now available.
2 tn This is a far better translation than “in you.” Jesus would never tell the hostile Pharisees that the kingdom was inside them. The reference is to Jesus present in their midst. He brings the kingdom. Another possible translation would be “in your grasp.” For further discussion and options, see D. L. Bock, Luke (BECNT), 2:1414-19

Luke 17 NET Bible

Attachment 82036

Gatsby,

Here is a sample of a lecture I studied some years ago, about Proof Texts . You won't find it on the internet, but it makes the point.





So, Gatsby based on what you have presented me below, which proof texts do you rely on to support your idea about Jesus?







Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer.

Eric,, the kingdom of God IS within you and yes, it is available to everyone today, here and now. No need to wait for a second Jesus to appear on the scene and scoop everyone up into heaven. Heaven, like Hell is a state of mind.

Jesus was talking about God being amongst the people, and of course this is tottally true. The only thing is that the people now as then think that God is going to do something miraculous and show himself to people, the so called chosen few. God is within you, he is the very heart of you (spiritual heart Iam meaning here) but also in the physical heart through a longing to be near him.

The Bible is not a literal book it is a spiritual book and as such must be read in that light. When it is read in that light it makes sense, if it is taken litteraly it does not make sense. There is much that is missed out of the Bible, which if the majority of people knew what that was, there way of thinking would be revolutiionary.

Hence you do not need to look here or there for the kingdom for you already have the kingdom within you..

Reagrds
Gatsby
ps I suggest you read the teachings of Dr MacDonald Bayne, Joel Goldsmith and others in that vein. They will explain in much more detail that I can give you here just exactly what things are missing in the Bible and also how translations over time have left them practially devoid of any credence.

I know you cannot find God in a book, any book but books can set you on the path to enlightenment, that is what Iam bothered about and not really this relgion vs that religion that kind of thinking leads nowhere.

[headheart]

Gatsby,

Your little mantra ( God is within you) does not match the light of Scripture. To bask in the hot rays of the sun, is sometimes quite pleasurable, but to do so without protection is foolish. I hope your little bridge to G_d stands up to the rigours of truth, but I strongly doubt that it will. For the grass withers, and the flowers fade, but it is the Word of G_d, that endures forever...

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer.

[Gatsby]

Gatsby,

Your little mantra ( God is within you) does not match the light of Scripture. To bask in the hot rays of the sun, is sometimes quite pleasurable, but to do so without protection is foolish. I hope your little bridge to G_d stands up to the rigours of truth, but I strongly doubt that it will. For the grass withers, and the flowers fade, but it is the Word of G_d, that endures forever...

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer.

Eric, I dont want to duel with you, Iam willing to listen to what you say and I hope you can afford the same courtesy to me.

To tell someone to 'go within' is not a mantra, for mantra's are useless, but you will find this in the Scriptures Iam sure. If not, then I suggest that the scriptures are at fault, no matter how much you beleive in them. I know it is diificult to come to the knowlege that what you may or anyone may have held dear to them as a beleif of some sort, and it turns out to be wrong. The feeling from that is not nice and our egoic mind then tries it's best to defend our mental position because as I have said before our egoic mind can only do two things and that is attatck and defend and if anyone comes along with a different theory, belief or whatever then you can be sure that the ego will jump to defend it's position. That is the work of the ego no more no less. This is what we must overcome and we do that by treating each other as we would wish to be treated. Love they neighbour and all that, remember?

You know Eric, there is one very quick way for me to find out if you indeed have truth or if you haven't and that is to ask you the question Is God seperate from you or are you One with God.

I shall wait until you reply to this before saying much more. I have to say that you couldn't have picked better words than to describe this world, it withers and passes away. This is the temporal world that we live in as mortals but heaven doesn't pass away. It, like God is Eternal, like we are eternal also. Not the body but the consciousness, this is eternal.

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

Hi Eric, as I have promised to read the posts to mention I thought you may like to read part of Joel Goldsmith's teachings. Dr MacDonald Bayne's teaching were similar and of the 2 I have to say the latter is my 'teacher'.

This link is not the official Goldsmith site, but that is there too on the net if you wish to view it. This is a peek at the teachings of Joel Goldsmith

http://theunofficialinfiniteway.com/...eway/iw_07.htm

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

Yikes Eric, the link doesn't work. Sorry about that. I think it may be better that you put in the names of my 2 fav teachers and you can puruse their work yourself.

Dr Murdo MacDonald Bayne and Joel Goldsmith.

These 2 authors although living in the last century would no doubt be considered New Age teachings and yet there actually is no such thing as these. All teachings being the same, just given different slants and different names appearing in the different scriptures.

Everything moves on and changes, nothing can remain the same. Therefore we must move on also and keep a open mind about things because when we come to a conclusion about something, then we lose sight of God within. We have in effect, closed our minds to God.

Regards
Gatsby

[Gatsby]

This should be the Goldsmith link now Erice. if it is not, lol I'll leave you to try and get these writings via your browser.

http://theunofficialinfiniteway.com/.

[headheart]

To tell someone to 'go within' is not a mantra, for mantra's are useless, but you will find this in the Scriptures Iam sure. If not, then I suggest that the scriptures are at fault, no matter how much you beleive in them.

It is not there, at least not in the form you have presented it.

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer.

[Gatsby]

It is not there, at least not in the form you have presented it.

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer.

I have tried it out Eric, this link works ok. It takes you to Joel Goldsmiths writings and from there if you check the site you can scroll down and see different headings. I suggest you have a look at Scriptural interpetation and you may, may, find something there that rings your bells so to speak. I find that most of Goldsmiths writings and Dr Mac's dont defy logic although Dr Mac is fond of telling his students that God does not defy logic He surpasses it. That means that none of us will ever have the complete Truth. Truth is something we feel within us it is not something the mortal mind can comfortably grasp. Nor is it a intellectual knowing it is a 'inner knowing'.

Regards
Gatsby

[headheart]

Lurker: It is not there [in the Scriptures], at least not in the form you have presented it.

[Gatsby]

Lurker: It is not there [in the Scriptures], at least not in the form you have presented it.

Eric,

But we must understand that we are not seeking His hands, we are not looking for results or an experience. We are seeking Him for Himself, to abide with Christ, where we are continually aware of His fullness within us, where His presence dwells in us in glory. "For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3). "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him" (Romans 6:8).

It is true that Christ is within us and that is where we must look. The only error here is that we didn't die With Christ, Christ is eternal and is Spirit and not flesh. Jesus was born of flesh and became enlightened which meant that he became One with Christ/God within him.

You also asked me if I thought Jesus was the Arch Angel Michael. The answer is no I dont.

Regards
Gatsby

ps the quotes have been copied and pasted but Iam expecting them to tie up fine.

[Gatsby]

Hi Eric this is from the link I gave you for Joel Goldsmith. I think this is better for explaining what I mean, ok.

BTW your two new signatures are much better, I like them and I agree that we must test everything.

Link:
Spiritual Interpretation of Scripture

Chapter - Spiritual Sense of Truth


Psm. 127: 1 -- "Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it."

Regardless of the human effort we put into any enterprise, if it is not backed by spiritual awareness, all we can expect from it is limited fruitage.

There is a vast difference between statements of truth and Truth itself. A statement of truth is what you declare: Truth itself is what is imparted to you from within your being. Statements of truth are read in books; Truth itself is what you discern between the lines.

Shankara, probably 800 B.C., wrote: "If the supreme truth remains unknown, the study of scripture is fruitless; the study of the letter alone is useless; the Spirit must be sought out by intuition."

The human mind claims to be a builder, to be a power, claims that it can do things for us. For generations the world has gone on trying to build humanly, and all it has accomplished is limitation. To insure the safety, security and prosperity of our existence, we have to come into the consciousness -- the conscious awareness -- of the presence of God.

Without this awareness, it is just as erroneous to make statements like, "God will help me; Got is everpresent and does help me," as it is to forget to make those statements. The statements themselves have no power. The human mind making such statements does not even believe in them. There must be an actual awareness of the presence of God. This must be felt within your own being.

"I can of mine own self do nothing" is as high a declaration as can be made. It shows forth the absolute nothingness of even a great man like Jesus. "My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me" -- "The Father within me, He doeth the works" -- "Except the Lord build the house" -- there must be an actual consciousness of the presence of this infinite divine spiritual Power acting within or really as your being.

In Acts 1:21 to 26, we come to a place where Judas has committed suicide and a successor is going to be appointed to fill his place in order that there may still be twelve disciples. The eleven are met together for the purpose of electing the twelfth. The prayer is then uttered. "Thou Lord, show which Thou hast chosen." The decision was left to God. Here is your cue for successful living. Realize that you are but the instrument through which or really the being as which God acts. In every detail of your life turn to the one Mind, God, in order that you may be rightly governed. In the recognition that all decision is with God, you have taken a step in making practical a revealed truth of Scripture.

Many believe they are turning to God when actually they turn to a God they ignorantly worship. To avoid this error, you need to know God as the Mind of you, the consciousness of the individual.

You have received the revelation of God as the Reality of your being; therefore, in turning to God you are not running to some far off Deity, but to the infinite intelligence of your own being. You are putting your human, limited self aside so that this infinite Mind, which is God, your own Mind, may make its works manifest.

There are times when we make statements that are subject to misunderstanding. First, none of the statements, none of the affirmations


Regards
Gatsby