Tekton was funny/ Thanks for the laugh!

[fm93]

Double application... I knew that was your only option ... LOL! Like it ...I LOVE IT!
ONLY AN IDIOT WOULD BELIEVE THAT! Deep down inside you know you don't.

The linked article tried to pass that off as a metaphor.... As I said they they do...

Egypt did not repent.... there is NO evidence that they embraced Yahweh as a nation, neither did they worship him with sacrifices and offerings as predicted. Unless you can clearly show such evidence it is a false prophecy like ........... Let me know when those 5 cities speak an extinct language or when dragons or satyrs get there...oh it was a warning.... metaphor..



God lies to Zedekiah again by telling him that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But later (2 Kg.25:7 and Jer.52:10-11) he dies a violent death in a foreign land. 34:2, 5

The beginning of the end for Zedekiah. Despite God's earlier assurances (34:5) that he would die peacefully at home, here Zedekiah watches as his children are killed and then has his eyes put out and he is shackled and taken to Babylon. 39:6-7

Dude...I'm losing patience. You're unbelievable. I've given you EVIDENCE--HARD, RAW, IN-YOUR-FACE, UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE that double-applications were used, and that it was entirely acceptable withing the parameters of Jewish exegesis. The only way that the double-application argument DOESN'T work is IF the evidence shows that Jewish exegesis WASN'T done that way. BUT, it CLEARLY WAS!

Like I said...you're demonstrating an attitude that's strikingly similar to my post of your Argument from Tight Panties: "If I don't like it, then it can't be true!"

Also, please take some time to actually READ the article. Show me WHERE Holding tries to pass it off as a metaphor. Everyone agrees that Tyre was destroyed; the issue is whether the word "they" in verse 12 refers to the nations or Nebuchadnezzar. There's absolutely no reason for Holding to pass it off as a metaphor, because EVERYONE agrees it was LITERALLY fulfilled! And I answered the point about Egypt already.

[fm93]

I've gotta go for now. If you demonstrate a more open mind, then I'll actually bother responding to the rest.

[K1112]

Matthew was hunting the scriptures to look for anything he can to try to prove Jesus was foretold.... Double application DODGE HA!
Just what I wanted everyone to see....

Also the article... if we're talking about the same ...ended saying it was a metaphor!

"Therefore there is no need for my previous arguments with respect to the identities of the ancient and modern cities, or never "finding" the city again. Ezekiel does not predict a permanent destruction but uses the ancient metaphors of war to describe the seriousness of Tyre's predicament."

[K1112]

Oh you mean you're going hunting for some more rescue sites for the rest....

You have not come up with many reasonable excuses. I read that article ... it doesn't seem to touch upon what you want to in regard to double application...there is such a thing like that in all cultures of writers, songs are written that way....Henley wrote All She Wants To is Dance...on one front it comes off as a pop song about a girl who wants to dance...but on another level... it's about political greed...and ruthlessness ... like Yahweh!
American Woman by he Guess Who was the same... one front about woman...the other was about the American war machine. But this is done within reason.
Not to the extreme they try to take it... the Jehovah Witnesses can do the same with their failed prophecies.... it has another application for another time...

The scriptures speak about the Exodus from Egypt...period.... the entire context was about that... Matthew was the only one pulled scriptures out of their context, because he saw a prophecy in everything. To everyone other than the fanatic who wishes to believe the bible is perfect and all true.... Matthew is a disgrace. He is the disgrace of the NT with what he tried to do to try to convince the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah.

To sum up
Egypt did not repent.... there is NO evidence that they embraced Yahweh as a nation, neither did they worship him with sacrifices and offerings as predicted.

" Egypt has never been a desolated countries surrounded by more desolated countries.
Its cities has never been desolated for any period of time "


"the prophecy says that Tyre shall never be rebuilt after the destruction by Nebuchadnezzar-which never happened-since he never destroyed the city. Even after the destruction by Alexander the Great, the city was still rebuilt. In fact the city of Tyre was even referred to, by that name, in the New Testament (Mark 7:24, Acts 12:20). Tyre exists to this day and has a population of about 12,000."

Ezekiel admitted his false prophecy 29:17-20
...the Lord God came to me: “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labour hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labour that he had performed against it...”
http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.n...cies.html#tyre


isaiah
These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20
Dragons will live in Babylonian palaces and satyrs will dance there. 13:21-22
This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1
The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5
"The land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt." Judah never invaded Egypt and was never a military threat to Egypt. 19:17
This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now. 19:18
These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt. 19:18-21

Jeremiah predicts that humans will never again live in Hazor, but will be replaced by dragons. But people still live there and dragons have never been seen. 49:33

Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. Jer 3:17

God lies to Zedekiah again by telling him that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But later (2 Kg.25:7 and Jer.52:10-11) he dies a violent death in a foreign land. 34:2, 5

The beginning of the end for Zedekiah. Despite God's earlier assurances (34:5) that he would die peacefully at home, here Zedekiah watches as his children are killed and then has his eyes put out and he is shackled and taken to Babylon. 39:6-7

God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land. 1:3-5

Joshua tells the Israelites that God will "without fail" drive out the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But later, the Bible tells us that he could not drive them out. 3:10

[K1112]

BTW...

Your boy Holding is brought forth in this article..

As I said many times in this read...coming up with any excuse does not mean the problem was solved....

"Bible-believers are full of clever (and some not so clever) rationalizations. The crucial question, however, is not whether "answers" can be generated in response to Bible difficulties but whether credible answers can be produced. What is the best explanation? Bible-believers seem to think that any loophole, however improbable, that gets the Bible off the hook has solved the problem."
http://davematson.edwardtbabinski.us/prophecy_tyre.html

[fm93]

Wow...

Holding isn't saying that the capture and destruction of Tyre was a metaphor, but rather that the language Ezekiel used to describe the magnitude of the dungload of trouble Tyre was in was hyperbolic.

[K1112]

Got ya...

Read that article about Holdings response...
http://davematson.edwardtbabinski.us/prophecy_tyre.html


See you tomorrow,

[fm93]

Double Application:
Ok...clearly, you're too set on the position that there can be no response. Let me just ask you this, then: even if Matthew ripped verses out of context, and even if this wasn't allowed, how does this have any bearing on the Messiahship of Jesus? There are plenty of other verses in the Old Testament that are used in the NT that clearly aren't out of context.

Egypt:
Once again...it doesn't have to be the case that Egypt as a nation worshiped YHWH. Heck, NO ONE needed to worship YHWH! All they had to to was heed the warning. Also, the hyperbolic language that I and Holding have mentioned shows that the the devastation of Egypt needn't be that widespread, so we shouldn't expect to find that many historical accounts mentioning it. And yet again, I must note that there's a scarcity of evidence both sides, so you can't reject the prophecy like that right off the bat. Keep in mind that Nebuchadnezzar was known for deporting people out of the nations he conquered. This makes it entirely possible that people were deported from Egypt.

Tyre:
This is what Holding meant by "metaphor." Such images of widespread destruction are hyperbolic, and deliberately used for rhetoric. It's a form of trash talk. In the article, Holding also cites examples of external sources, such as Rameses III, that use such language.
In regard to Nebuchadnezzar...I quote the article:
"As noted above, we return here to the they/I pairing indicating that "nations" will do these things -- which would allow that Babylon or any other nation could fulfill these passages. However, here Alexander is the only one who made a spoil of Tyre (Nebuchadnezzar got ripped off, per Ezekiel 29); and only he qualified to have broken down Tyre's "pleasant houses" -- likely the good stuff on the island."

[Anon]

I like that Job teaches that stars are anthropomorphic beings. It came from Enoch.

"Like the Bible, 1 Enoch typically depicts stars as living, anthropomorphic beings. The Sons of the Gods are also dealt with in 1 Enoch, and they are associated with stars. This is consistent with Job 38:7, which says that when the earth's cornerstone was laid “the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted aloud.”

As mentioned earlier, Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:13 deal with stars that fall to earth. The image comes from Enoch, but Matthew and John omit some details. In 1 Enoch 88:1, a star that fell from the sky is seized, bound hand and foot, and thrown into an abyss. A few verses later, other stars “whose sexual organs were like the organs of horses” are likewise bound hand and foot and cast “into the pits of the earth (1 Enoch 88:3).”

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

Also God keeps Hail or snow in a storehouse, it's not kept anywhere, as drops of water fall from a cloud they crystallize and form with air particles into snow flakes. God would have said have you seen the water crystallize into the snow, not being kept in storehouse, (Job 38) you make God out to be a dope.
Your reasons for an inerrant Bible is to keep people believing that already do. Don't think for a second people on the fence about God are going to come to God if they believe all the excuses that site came up with to try to shed some hope on those contradictions. That is for people who want to keep believing in an all inspired inerrant Bible.
You people don't realize that normal people who see these hundreds of contradictions, are not going to buy into all those apologetics. So you give people the impression that if something in it is wrong, it is not the word of God and therefore ALL the Bible is all wrong. So when they don't believe your excuses, they don't believe. You would be better off saying it is not inerrant but is over all true. This way you give them a reason to believe in the Bible rather than the hundreds of apologetics. Also, they didn't cover many of them. Read Donald Morgan's list, a lot of them have not been covered by you people,

2KI 4:32-37 A dead child is raised (well before the time of Jesus).
MT 9:18-25, JN 11:38-44 Two dead persons are raised (by Jesus himself).
AC 26:23 Jesus was the first to rise from the dead.

All of the grass on the earth is burned up. Rev.8:7.
The army of locusts are instructed not to harm the grass. Rev.9:4.

Paul states that the law is necessary. Rom.3:31.
Paul states that the law is not necessary. Rom.6:14.

Paul said he would not be a servant of Christ if he tried to please men. Gal.1:10.
Paul said that he tried to please men. 1 Cor.10:33.

Do not boast. Lk.18:14.
Do not be proud. Rom.11:20; 1 Pet. 5:5.
Paul proudly boasts. 2 Cor.11:16-18; Gal.2:9-11.

JG 4:21 Sisera was sleeping when Jael killed him.
JG 5:25-27 Sisera was standing.

To name a few of the many.

They're also having a documentary on Darwin's missing link tonight on the History channel at 9 PM Eastern. So make sure you come up with some apologetics for that.
Your apologetics, the ones you did try to cover, (apart from the one you didn't) go far beyond their normal literal meaning. You reach far for answers apart from their related passages. There is something called the Golden rule of interpretation.
"When the plain sense of scripture
makes common sense, seek no other sense;
therefore, take every word
at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning
unless the facts of the immediate context,
studied in the light of related passages
and axiomatic and fundamental truths,
indicate clearly otherwise."
I enjoyed trying to see you come up with literally hundreds and hundreds of excuses, to make some something full of contradictions and errors perfect.
If it was perfect or inspired by the spirit, it wouldn't appear to look like a book of contradictions or need your apologetics to cover what is on the surface, a book full of contradictions.
The book was to be understood by itself, not meant to be understood with your commentary of excuses.
Those excuses DO NOT ARISE FROM A NORMAL READING OF THE BIBLE. The Spirit would not have needed your help to make people not see contradictions in a perfect infallible book of God.
The God of that Bible kills infants...

1SA 15 "Yahway orders the killing of innocent infants (even those feeding on their mothers milk) and innocent animals!
This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling,"

Condones slavery! (Leviticus 25)

Orders the heads off of dead people (Numbers 25:4)

Orders the murder of children again, orders ARSON, theft, & terror!
(God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those whores, Oholah and Oholibah and burn down their houses as well as cut their noses and ears off, even take their clothes and & fine jewelry) God said that Oholibah wanted her lovers genitals to be the size of a donkeys, and their ejaculations to be like horses! Ezekiel 23 (God didn't like it that she likes big ones).
Yea God said that.
And said he will be the cause of pregnant women being ripped open. Hosea 13
You people out to be ashamed of yourselves.

I want to say THANK YOU so much!!! I haven't laughed as hard at a post since I've been on Tweb, save for a few of Yo Lunch's posts. Enjoy your platinum Screwbie.

[fm93]

isaiah
These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20
Dragons will live in Babylonian palaces and satyrs will dance there. 13:21-22
This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1
The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5
"The land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt." Judah never invaded Egypt and was never a military threat to Egypt. 19:17
This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now. 19:18
These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt. 19:18-21

Jeremiah predicts that humans will never again live in Hazor, but will be replaced by dragons. But people still live there and dragons have never been seen. 49:33

Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. Jer 3:17

God lies to Zedekiah again by telling him that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But later (2 Kg.25:7 and Jer.52:10-11) he dies a violent death in a foreign land. 34:2, 5

The beginning of the end for Zedekiah. Despite God's earlier assurances (34:5) that he would die peacefully at home, here Zedekiah watches as his children are killed and then has his eyes put out and he is shackled and taken to Babylon. 39:6-7

God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land. 1:3-5

Joshua tells the Israelites that God will "without fail" drive out the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But later, the Bible tells us that he could not drive them out. 3:10

13:19--What are you smoking? Babylon was devastated. Also, one translation says that it won't be SETTLED, which connotes permanence.

Dragons and satyrs should be probably be translated jackals and wild goats. (The word for dragons has been translated into things like whales, serpents, monsters, etc--it's very broad, and thus susceptible to mistranslation)

17:1--Read the actual verse. It doesn't say Damascus will be destroyed forever.

Nile drying up: ANE hyperboles, once again.

19:17--doesn't have to mean military threat.

19:18--was fulfilled by the time of Jeremiah.

19:21--balderdash. There are people called Coptic Christians, in Egypt.

49:33--dude, were you a KJV onlyist, or what? Mistranslation, most likely.

3:17--actually, it simply says that all nations will embrace YHWH. And, uh, K1112? Isn't YHWH, I dunno...the God of Christianity? Christianity has spread to all nations. Thus, the prophecy has been fulfilled.

You know, I've just noticed...these things are all from Skeptics Annotated.

So, when you said earlier that you "had more"...you were just referring to all those other books from SAB, eh? That's pathetic.

I find no reason to further write these responses. I could theoretically just dump this on you, and order you to refute all of that.

[fm93]

BTW...

Your boy Holding is brought forth in this article..

As I said many times in this read...coming up with any excuse does not mean the problem was solved....

"Bible-believers are full of clever (and some not so clever) rationalizations. The crucial question, however, is not whether "answers" can be generated in response to Bible difficulties but whether credible answers can be produced. What is the best explanation? Bible-believers seem to think that any loophole, however improbable, that gets the Bible off the hook has solved the problem."
http://davematson.edwardtbabinski.us/prophecy_tyre.html

Psh. Babinski? My response:

Plus, this is a mere soundbite. You didn't show how they might be rationalizations. And no, "It can't be right, because it's not the way I'd do it" doesn't count as an answer.

[K1112]

The problems still remain for the Egypt prophecy. The land was never conquered.
No Egyptologist would take your side. As isaid he even admitted his failed prophecy.
You still have the problems with Egypt offering sacrifices etc and speaking an extinct tongue.
You have a lot of problems there.

"the prophecy says that Tyre shall never be rebuilt after the destruction by Nebuchadnezzar-which never happened-since he never destroyed the city. Even after the destruction by Alexander the Great, the city was still rebuilt. In fact the city of Tyre was even referred to, by that name, in the New Testament (Mark 7:24, Acts 12:20). Tyre exists to this day and has a population of about 12,000."

Ezekiel admitted his false prophecy 29:17-20
...the Lord God came to me: “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labour hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labour that he had performed against it...”
http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.n...cies.html#tyre

as far as the Matthews reaches. I get the feeling you know.... If you know what I mean.
As far as the others proving Jesus.... I read both sides Rabbi vs minister... Some pasages are vauge and could go either way , but let's save that topic for another thread.... There is a lot to cover on that one.

[fm93]

I want to say THANK YOU so much!!! I haven't laughed as hard at a post since I've been on Tweb, save for a few of Yo Lunch's posts. Enjoy your platinum Screwbie.

This 1970s guy would be a shoo in, but unfortunately, he's deprived TheologyWeb of the opportunity to bust even more guts laughing, because he hasn't be back since May.

However, it's possible that he could be K1112. They're basically doing the same thing: copying and pasting long lists, ignoring responses, refusing to accept answers because of their own unyielding presuppositions, and then posting even more long lists.

[fm93]

The problems still remain for the Egypt prophecy. The land was never conquered.
No Egyptologist would take your side. As isaid he even admitted his failed prophecy.
You still have the problems with Egypt offering sacrifices etc and speaking an extinct tongue.
You have a lot of problems there.

"the prophecy says that Tyre shall never be rebuilt after the destruction by Nebuchadnezzar-which never happened-since he never destroyed the city. Even after the destruction by Alexander the Great, the city was still rebuilt. In fact the city of Tyre was even referred to, by that name, in the New Testament (Mark 7:24, Acts 12:20). Tyre exists to this day and has a population of about 12,000."

Ezekiel admitted his false prophecy 29:17-20
...the Lord God came to me: “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labour hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labour that he had performed against it...”
http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.n...cies.html#tyre

as far as the Matthews reaches. I get the feeling you know.... If you know what I mean.
As far as the others proving Jesus.... I read both sides Rabbi vs minister... Some pasages are vauge and could go either way , but let's save that topic for another thread.... There is a lot to cover on that one.

Jeepers creepers, man.

I've unnecessarily wasted so much time this week responding to you. The least you could do is actually read my posts. I responded to everything on there already. All you did was repeat your arguments.

[K1112]

It states that Babylon will not be inhabited again.

Dragons or whatever. Those lands were not desolete and occupied by only those 2 things.
You're reaching again on 9:17 and 9:18 was not fulfilled. And they did not worship Yahweh with sacrifices as predicted.
5 cities did not speak an extinct tongue in Egypt either

All of the world did not embrace Judism .... Christianity is an offshoot.... But they are 2 different religions, eg mormanism being embraced by the world. The entire world did not embrace Christianity either, you can always find most religions in a lot of nations What you do is look for little pockets to cover the magnitude of the prophecy.

Originally posted by K1112
BTW...

Your boy Holding is brought forth in this article..

As I said many times in this read...coming up with any excuse does not mean the problem was solved....

"Bible-believers are full of clever (and some not so clever) rationalizations. The crucial question, however, is not whether "answers" can be generated in response to Bible difficulties but whether credible answers can be produced. What is the best explanation? Bible-believers seem to think that any loophole, however improbable, that gets the Bible off the hook has solved the problem."
http://davematson.edwardtbabinski.us/prophecy_tyre.html