For materialists, do you believe that truth exists independent of mind? If so, how?

[JimL]

Are you making a distinction between Truth and what is true?

Yes, there is no such thing as truth apart from reality, there is only reality and what we call truth is the minds correct interpretation of that reality. So, does reality exist independent of the mind, of course it does, it existed prior to the existence of minds.

[Quantum Weirdness]

Yes, there is no such thing as truth apart from reality, there is only reality and what we call truth is the minds correct interpretation of that reality. So, does reality exist independent of the mind, of course it does, it existed prior to the existence of minds.

So, did anything true exist before the existence of the mind?

[shunyadragon]

So, did anything true exist before the existence of the mind?

I am a theist and the existence of the ultimate mind is God, and God is origin of Truth and all of existence. To the philosophical naturalist the truth of our natural existence existed before any minds existed.

[Carrikature]

But if you claim that Truth was an empty set, then you're saying that it was true that truth existed as an empty set (it's implicit in the statement).

Reword this. "If there are no minds, Truth would be an empty set." This statement is true, and therefore belongs in the set of Truth. However, in a universe where no minds exist, neither does this statement. Nor does the statement "Truth is an empty set" exist in a universe with no minds. There's never a time where there are statements to be included in the set of Truth when there aren't also minds.

In a universe with minds, you could potentially have Truth be an empty set. I think, to be valid, you couldn't say "Truth is an empty set" belongs in the set of Truth, though. While technically true, it would invalidate itself immediately. The only way to make a statement about Truth's emptiness that remained valid while making it would be to say "Truth was an empty set." There's definitely some weirdness in here, though (pun not intended).

Also, if Truth is just a category and does not exist, then there was nothing true about anything before consciousness came to be. So, for example, it was not true that consciousness would eventually exist.

Sure. Truth is a mechanism for us to discuss our beliefs. You can't use the mechanism sans an entity that can have beliefs. "Consciousness would eventually exist" is a belief. It may or may not match how things actually work, hence we can say the statement may be true or false. That doesn't have any impact on what actually exists, though.

[JimL]

So, did anything true exist before the existence of the mind?

Again, truth is not something that exists, reality exists, truth is only the minds correct interpretation of that reality. That question is akin to asking whether or not falsehood existed prior to minds. Truth and falsehood, in and of themselves are not things that exist.

[37818]

Again, truth is not something that exists, reality exists, truth is only the minds correct interpretation of that reality. That question is akin to asking whether or not falsehood existed prior to minds. Truth and falsehood, in and of themselves are not things that exist.

What does not exist in any form is not truth. Yet even falsehoods have a form.

[shunyadragon]

What does not exist in any form is not truth. Yet even falsehoods have a form.

Only in the human mind, and not reality. The falsehoods will not be objectively falsified by objective scientific methods.

[Quantum Weirdness]

Again, truth is not something that exists, reality exists, truth is only the minds correct interpretation of that reality. That question is akin to asking whether or not falsehood existed prior to minds. Truth and falsehood, in and of themselves are not things that exist.

If something is true, then something exists (i.e. non-existent things do not have properties). But the only things that can be true are sentences, ideas, propositions etc. and hence, one of these must exist. And they would necessarily be truth. "Reality" is not a coherent sentence, idea (that could be true) or proposition and hence, cannot be true. "Reality exists" must itself exist in order for it to be true.

Consequently, nothing was true before the existence of the mind.

* I accidentally amened your post.

[shunyadragon]

If something is true, then something exists (i.e. non-existent things do not have properties).

True.

But the only things that can be true are sentences, ideas, propositions etc. and hence, one of these must exist. And they would necessarily be truth.

These are descriptive, and not necessarily true nor false, and no, they do not necessarily exist.

"Reality" is not a coherent sentence, idea (that could be true) or proposition and hence, cannot be true. "Reality exists" must itself exist in order for it to be true.

Confusing to say the least.

Consequently, nothing was true before the existence of the mind.

. . . does not follow, and basically an unsupported presupposition that God (the mind) exists.

[JimL]

If something is true, then something exists (i.e. non-existent things do not have properties). But the only things that can be true are sentences, ideas, propositions etc. and hence, one of these must exist. And they would necessarily be truth. "Reality" is not a coherent sentence, idea (that could be true) or proposition and hence, cannot be true. "Reality exists" must itself exist in order for it to be true.

Consequently, nothing was true before the existence of the mind.

* I accidentally amened your post.

Truth is nothing in itself, truth is just a term we use to define the correct interpretation of that which is, of reality, and the act of interpreting, ergo the act of a mind, isn't necessary for that which is, for reality, to exist. Prior to the existence of animated life, prior to the existence of minds, the universe existed, and it existed even though its existence couldn't be interpreted by any mind. Reality doesn't have to be known in order to be.

[Carrikature]

If something is true, then something exists (i.e. non-existent things do not have properties). But the only things that can be true are sentences, ideas, propositions etc. and hence, one of these must exist. And they would necessarily be truth. "Reality" is not a coherent sentence, idea (that could be true) or proposition and hence, cannot be true. "Reality exists" must itself exist in order for it to be true.

Consequently, nothing was true before the existence of the mind.

* I accidentally amened your post.

This is operating under a different definition of 'true' than what the rest of us are using. I think that's one of the bigger disconnects here. Also, there's nothing that suggests properties exist, let alone only apply to those things which do exist. We can talk coherently about Santa Claus without claiming that Santa actually exists, after all.