Originally posted by hansgeorg
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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For materialists, do you believe that truth exists independent of mind? If so, how?
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Originally posted by hansgeorg View Poststill depending on an ultimately mindless reality, how does an adequation of mind to exterior thing come about?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYeah, I think that P2 ergo C can be rejected. Truth, statements, ideas, propositions, don't necessarily exist sans the existence of the corresponding reality which they are founded upon.
I am of the opinion that mind evolves from out of the reality of existence, not the other way around.-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostHm. I would probably say that truth is the set of X that corresponds to reality. That's a reframing of P1 which, I think, eliminates the seeming contradiction. Without a mind, that set is empty.
However, I probably wouldn't say 'truth' actually exists even with minds. That would seem to entail an application of realism that I don't accept. The question for me wouldn't be if it's dependent on a mind but if it exists at all.
I'm not sure if I count or not, then. I'm a substance monist, but it's not technically a materialist view. Maybe that's close enough.-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
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Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostOk. Statements, Truth, ideas, propositions don't exist independent of reality. I can agree with you here. But what do you mean by reality here? The physical world? Or just a fundamental substance ?(not necessarily physical). From your comment, it seems that you think that x may be defined as "corresponding reality" and hence, truth may simply be defined as physical reality. However, that would mean that the noun, the universe, is truth and anything that is not the universe is not truth. So, for example it would not be true that the stars exist since they are not reality (though they are part of it). If you define truth as being part of the universe (or the whole thing), you still run into problems. A door, for example, would constitute a truth, or a pig may constitute a truth. Neither of which makes any sense whatsoever. Also, would any statement or idea be true, since they all have the property of existing in reality?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostActually what I opined is that "truth" can be defined as that which in the mind corresponds to the external reality.-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
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Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostOk. Then do you agree that Truth did not exist prior to the existence of the mind?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostOk. Then do you agree that Truth did not exist prior to the existence of the mind?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, the reality of the world is what it is, is true, whether there exist a mind able to grasp that reality or not. Truth is simply the reality of existence, and the minds correspondence with that realty.-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut facts would exist without minds. The existence of the sun would not depend on minds grasping that fact. The propositional truth "the sun exists" is mind dependent. Correct?-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
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Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostHow do facts exist without minds? If they do, then they exist platonically (since a fact isn't something physical). But that contradicts materialism.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostOk consider this: "Stars exist." Now, stars existed prior to the existence of the mind, according to the materialist world view. Therefore, for this to be true independent of the mind, it must be part of the reality of existence. Therefore, "Stars exist" must really exist (be part of the reality of existence). Now,what is "Stars exist"? Is it something physical? It can't be something platonic for that contradicts materialism.
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Originally posted by seer View PostCorrect, they would not be called facts, that does takes a mind to formulate. But you agree that the sun would still exist without minds - correct? Unless you are an Idealist.-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
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Originally posted by JimL View PostTruths about the nature of reality are abstractions, they are not things that have existence in their own right.-The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
Sir James Jeans
-This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
Sir Isaac Newton
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Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View PostWell, I am an Idealist (Monistic Idealist, to be exact).Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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