Hey Christian! Have you been to Synagogue???

[Tanakh Keeper]

Are you the only people who can read and interpret what it written?

Peace.
Ken

We are the only people using G-d's original testament and it is written in Hebrew.

[Tanakh Keeper]

What's more, this myth has caused many to serve their communities and the world through faith... so if he is a failed Messiah as I have been told by other Jews I know, he is one heck of a failure!

Peace.
Ken

Lots of people in the world have had great accomplishments, it doesn't mean that they meet G-d's definition of being labeled a messiah.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Originally posted by Bosco
Understood. I guess you'll just have to wait till he returns. :-)

That's gonna be one loooonnnng wait.

Personally, I think Ross Perot was the greatest President we ever had. I can't hardly wait until Ross has a second coming to fulfill his Presidential duties.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Originally posted by Bosco
True, but modern Christians, in general, are adding to their communties, not destroying them with bombs and ideological rhetoric. Besides, in Christianity whether you have eyes to see this or not, whether you have the will to see this or not, you have your best friend in the world. …The thing that amazed me, and MAYBE what caused me to start seeking more knowledge about Israel and the Hebrew roots of our faith... was how many Christian congregations pray openly, and at home, for Israel and the Jewish people. What happens in Israel, and to her people, is of great concern to most Christians, and thus she (Israel) is constantly lifted up in prayer by them. In the Hebrew roots congregations, well, they are all about Israel. While many of either group still sees the need to go out and try to convert Jews, it is out of love of Messiah that they do this.

{snip}

I understand the resentment, and no disrespect to our Jewish friends here, I don't blame them. Some of the early church fathers were anti-semites …. Later, Christians killed many Jews during the Crusades…

I really am surprised, as the author of this thread, at the apparent animosity expressed here. ... some of the Jews who have such resentment toward Christians, and some of the Christians who thinks it's a waste of time to experience (even in a small way) Judaism.

I guess I'm incredibly naive! Yes, I understand some Christians see it as their goal to "convert" Jews, and yes, I understand that Jews resent that. But in my own little corner of the world, I have experienced none of this!

We (Christians I know) pray for Israel, and wish her well. Pure and simple. And my life has been enriched by my association with my Jewish friends.

I can appreciate the sentiment that we want to all get along together. I can appreciate the sentiment that neither of you personally physically attack Jews. Hopefully, both of you can appreciate the sentiment that you are not on the receiving end of the so-called “Great Commission”. Obviously, you won’t have the experiences that we have.

For the most part, Christian “love” is not pure and simple. While there are a few Christian groups which genuinely support Israel and Judaism without any ulterior motives, the majority of Christian groups do have ulterior motives. It is the constant proselytizing efforts and denigration of our beliefs that keep us on edge. Someone once said “Beware of pointing fingers, because three fingers are pointed back at yourself.”

[John Goddard]

Personally, I think Ross Perot was the greatest President we ever had. I can't hardly wait until Ross has a second coming to fulfill his Presidential duties.

Lots of people in the world have had great accomplishments, it doesn't mean that they meet G-d's definition of being labeled a messiah.

It just means some are in denial that Jesus is THE only Messianic Light of a believing Gentile majority accepted by billions of them, over half the world at this time, who also accept the Jewish God.

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Ever wonder why it specifically says Gentiles seek him?

[Bosco]

Not necessarily, unless you are claiming to have read all these accounts directly from the Talmud. If you read some cherry-picked part of it on a Christian web site, book or sermon, then I'd like to know that the interpretations fit with the context, that nothing was ommitted, etc.

You do not know me, know my study habits, you don't know how many hours I have read this book or that... nothing. Never assume.

But even if you have it exactly correct, you and all other Christians who bring it up forget one important detail: if the rabbis were/are expecting two messiahs or one messiah doing two jobs, they obviously understand that Jss still didn't fit the bill for either job/role/messiah. What you point to and say, "ah hah!" the rabbis have looked at and say, "Yeah? So? Still not him."

No offense, but rabbis are not God. Also, when I get to it, I will post a short article I wrote proving the Law was given in written form and to relied on in written form.

Thanks, but having been born into a Christian family of preachers and teachers, having been a Christian and active apologetic for the first 38 years or so of my life, I'm pretty certain I understand your reasons (though reasoning has little to do with it, usually).

Thanks to you (again) for your kind words. It is a pleasure speaking with you.

Peace.
Ken

[Bosco]

For the most part, Christian “love” is not pure and simple. While there are a few Christian groups which genuinely support Israel and Judaism without any ulterior motives, the majority of Christian groups do have ulterior motives. It is the constant proselytizing efforts and denigration of our beliefs that keep us on edge. Someone once said “Beware of pointing fingers, because three fingers are pointed back at yourself.”

Don't indict all Christians over bad exegesis and tradition we have been born into. Just as we are born into a Greek mindset, Jews are born into an anti-Yehoshua mindset which makes it just as hard for you to take an objective look at him... as it does for Christians to look at the Hebraic aspects of their faith. But TK, that is changing. There are congregations of Torah keeping Christians popping up all over the place.

Not all who SAY they are Christian, are. The core, which of course amounts to million of them here in this country, are kind good people who indeed seek love and peace and not division. That aside, don't underestimate how many pray for Israel daily. There are more than you might realize.

Peace.
Ken

[Bosco]

Lots of people in the world have had great accomplishments, it doesn't mean that they meet G-d's definition of being labeled a messiah.

The Brit Chadasha in Aramaic form (Peshitta) is one of the oldest religious documents we have. It even pre-dates many Tanach books we have in the form of scrolls in existence. While I suspect the original Brit Chadasha letters were written mostly in Hebrew, we don't have them, sadly. To make a blanket statement that the Brit Chadasha is a false record, without taking the time to really study the issue, is bad scholarship. I am not suggesting you do that, but until you do, you should not be so quick to assume Yehoshua did not meet the requirements of being messiah. If the Brit Chadasha is real, there is virtually no question that Yehoshua is Messiah and that wait won't be so loooooong. If it is false, then I assume when the end time does come, there will be one hell'uv a lot of gentiles running to grab the hem of a Jew asking to be shown Torah.

Just being personal here TK, cause I think I like you, one of my favorite set of verses is prophetic, and I have never heard it preached as such. (I suspect many Christian preachers miss the meaning- no offense to them of course!) It comes from the book of Acts, and the reason I like this verse is because I believe it is being fulfilled as we speak. It states:

Act 3:19 “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master,
Act 3:20 and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you,
Act 3:21 whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which Elohim spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old.

What was spoken by Elohim by his prophets of old? Torah and the reign of Messiah? What do we see today in droves but Christians who believe on Yehoshua but are now keeping Shabbat, the appointed days, even in some cases gathering to blow the shofar on the new moon. Why? Is this a work of ha shatan or Elohim?

Shabbat Shalom.
Ken

[Cow Poke]

I can appreciate the sentiment that we want to all get along together. I can appreciate the sentiment that neither of you personally physically attack Jews. Hopefully, both of you can appreciate the sentiment that you are not on the receiving end of the so-called “Great Commission”. Obviously, you won’t have the experiences that we have.

For the most part, Christian “love” is not pure and simple. While there are a few Christian groups which genuinely support Israel and Judaism without any ulterior motives, the majority of Christian groups do have ulterior motives. It is the constant proselytizing efforts and denigration of our beliefs that keep us on edge. Someone once said “Beware of pointing fingers, because three fingers are pointed back at yourself.”

This is sad, indeed.
Because I'm a Christian, I'm guilty by association? I have a great relationship with my Jewish friends. They know what I believe, but I do not try to convince them of anything. I pray for them, and it is my desire that they know Jesus, but I respect the fact that this is offensive to many of them, and I don't push.

You, my friend, are pointing fingers, and you are exhibiting prejudice. This saddens me. Is there not even a REMOTE possibility that SOME Christians truly pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and support Israel?

[John Goddard]

Is there not even a REMOTE possibility that SOME Christians truly pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and support Israel?

To be fair he said, "While there are a few Christian groups which genuinely support Israel and Judaism without any ulterior motives..."

But I for one don't really care to support them until they support Jesus, so he's right on some level. I don't wish them harm, but I also don't wish them any great success if it means that more people are turned away from Jesus by their countermissionary and other activities.

[Cow Poke]

To be fair he said, "While there are a few Christian groups which genuinely support Israel and Judaism without any ulterior motives..."

But I for one don't really care to support them until they support Jesus, so he's right on some level. I don't wish them harm, but I also don't wish them any great success if it means that more people are turned away from Jesus by their countermissionary and other activities.

Well, yeah, you're correct John... it just seems like at SOME point ... never mind. You're right.

[John Goddard]

Well, yeah, you're correct John... it just seems like at SOME point ... never mind. You're right.

In truth there are plenty of Christians like you very tolerant of Jews, but there are few Jews very tolerant of Christians. At some point you have to ask, why do some want to keep visiting interfaith forums if hearing Christian beliefs is upsetting to them? I don't get it. It's like going to a bar and telling other patrons you don't want to hear any talk about alcohol.

[Salty]

You do not know me, know my study habits, you don't know how many hours I have read this book or that... nothing. Never assume.

Why are you so sore? Please notice the phrase "not necessarily", and the words "unless" and "if" in my reply. I don't pretend to know you or your sources, it's why I asked.

No offense, but rabbis are not God.

Well, that's right, they're not, no offense taken. But then neither was anyone involved with the New Testament stories.

The Jews were given the texts by God. It would be pretty silly for Him to give it to them without also giving them the types of people (rabbis) with the tools and abilities and dedication to learn how to recognize their own messiah. It would be even sillier if He then put a veil over their eyes to prevent them from doing so, as some have asserted.

So they don't have to be God, and they aren't. But they are the most qualified to understand and interpret Torah.

Also, when I get to it, I will post a short article I wrote proving the Law was given in written form and to relied on in written form.

Looking forward to reading it. I spent a few years with the Karaites, so I'm pretty familiar with their arguments against the Oral Torah, including some good ones I'd like to see answered. And I'd like to see if you've thought of something new.

[Bosco]

Why are you so sore? Please notice the phrase "not necessarily", and the words "unless" and "if" in my reply. I don't pretend to know you or your sources, it's why I asked.

Not sore Salty, I took this the wrong way it seems. "If you read some cherry-picked part of it on a Christian web site, " The "cherry pick" comment seemed kind of rude at the time and it infers I Googled for info and settled on some Christian web site for information. Not the case.

The Jews were given the texts by God. It would be pretty silly for Him to give it to them without also giving them the types of people (rabbis) with the tools and abilities and dedication to learn how to recognize their own messiah. It would be even sillier if He then put a veil over their eyes to prevent them from doing so, as some have asserted.

I will leave the veil part alone. (I think it applies to Christians too BTW) As for the Jews being given the texts, I take issue with that. (respectfully) Unless I am wrong, and you are welcome to correct me if I am off base, but the word Jew is the modern short form of Judah. (Yehudah) Seeing the Southern and Northern Kingdoms have not been reunited (see Ezk 37 and Jer 31) yet, I do not believe it is appropriate to call the whole house of Israel Jews. It was Israel, as a whole, that received the texts, and not just Judah. If (I said if) we are Ephraimites, and I personally believe we are, then we are grafted into Israel and are fellow citizens. I consider us brothers and sisters serving the same one Father.

So they don't have to be God, and they aren't. But they are the most qualified to understand and interpret Torah.

Says who, God? I don't mean that as it sounds, but where in Torah does it say that only a bloodline Jew, and a Rabbi at that, is best equipted to interpret scripture?

Looking forward to reading it. I spent a few years with the Karaites, so I'm pretty familiar with their arguments against the Oral Torah, including some good ones I'd like to see answered. And I'd like to see if you've thought of something new.

My thoughts will not align with yours no doubt, and you seem reasonable so please take nothing personally. They are opinions based on scripture alone. I will start a thread Sunday or Monday and we can discuss it then.

Shabbat Shalom.
Ken

[Tanakh Keeper]

You, my friend, are pointing fingers, and you are exhibiting prejudice. This saddens me. Is there not even a REMOTE possibility that SOME Christians truly pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and support Israel?

CP, did you even read my post? I said “a few” Christian groups support Israel. Also, I did not attack you personally, while you took my post as a personal attack. You my friend are attempting to play the victim while ignoring the damage that this so-called “Great Commission” does.