Hey Christian! Have you been to Synagogue???

[Rapalyea]

I am out of here. No EDIT button my smelly hairy butt.

[Hamster]

There is an edit button but it disappears after a set amount of time after you post.

Also, a little more information than I required in that last post

[Dracula Girl]

That is not the case in Judaism. Specifically, "The Sages' noticed this oddity and did lots of scouring through The Old Testament, and made some speculative conclusions. They identify the first wife as Lilith, and conclude she was banished from the Garden of Eden because she was sexually agressive; apparently liked to be on top.

Once banished she became something of a demon temptress. For instance, perhaps, she is responsible for enducing nocturnal emissions from adolescent males in the deep of night. These 'matings' then produce off spring that are, well, less then upstanding members of society. [I like the pun.]

Well, there was Eve, and Lillith, but then there was also the other wife, the one G_d made in front of Adam, putting together the bone and then muscle and sinew and by the time He finished, Adam was so grossed out he didn't want to touch her.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Anastasia, please be careful of who you receive your education of Judaism from. No offense intended to anyone, but take everything coming from your fellow Christians with a very large dose of salt. Even when it comes from a Jew, often there is so much basic information you need to know beforehand in order to not misunderstand what is said. When I left Christianity and started to learn about Judaism, I first had to unlearn almost everything I thought I know about it, because it was nearly all wrong. And much of what I learned I misunderstood, being tainted by my Christianity-based point of view and education.

Anastasia, I want to agree most strongly with Salty above. If you have more questions about Judaism, asking Christians is NOT a good place to start. I'd recommend askmoses.org or jewfaq.org as good starting places. This site is not good as it is too christian based.

Even Rapalyea who fancies himself as knowledgeable, acknowledges his limitations

A BRIEF AND UNOFFICIAL HISTORY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT. First, Salty is correct that actual Jewish Authorities should be consulted.

[Dracula Girl]

Anastasia, I want to agree most strongly with Salty above. If you have more questions about Judaism, asking Christians is NOT a good place to start. I'd recommend askmoses.org or jewfaq.org as good starting places. This site is not good as it is too christian based.

Even Rapalyea who fancies himself as knowledgeable, acknowledges his limitations

Umm, what makes you think I don't ask Jews when I want to know something about Judaism? I distinguish between Messianic with I have described to people as "Jewish-style Christianity" and Rabbinic or Karaite Judiasm. When I asked my last question in this thread, I was perfectly happy to hear from Jews. When I said I wanted to compare Messianic Judaism with judaism in terms of legal structure offered, I said that distinguishing between Judaism and Messianic as well as between mainstream Christianity and Messianic which may share a soteriology and basic scriptures but does have some theological and cultural distinctives. I asked my last question thread on Judaism under the Judaism section rather than under some other section because I wanted an answer from Jews. And BTW, I read jewfaq.org. I've been to askmoses.org. I've read Judaism for Dummies (not very in depth but entertaining). I've been to Jews4judaism's website. My youtube subscriptions include a convert-now Orthodox Jew, a Reform Rabbi, and a channel on converting to Judaism. I even know enough to not follow everything I read by a Jew (or rabbi/author/theologian/professor) as a defining source for socially defined identities and philosophies. Honestly, I don't see how you would think that I don't get answers about Judaism from Jews unless you are can't get how I can do that and not fully agree with you. Or do I take for granted to much the fact that I've read that most Jews do not consider Messianic Judaism to be Jewish?

[Salty]

Anastasia, you are the exception, then. Kudos to you for your thoroughness in research. Had I known that, I would not have posted my advice, or at least I would not have explicitly addressed it to you, but to the general Christian audience.

[Salty]

Salty

I caution the use of the term blasphemous. It both presuposes motive, and stipulates absolutes not in evidence.

I disagree. You are describing a lie, which does presuppose a motive of deception, saying something that the speaker knows to be false in order to deceive. A blasphemous statement is almost always believed by the speaker; there is no attempt to deceive, even though what he is saying is not true, in reality. Both are sins, but a lie is intentional, blasphemy is unintentional.

Specifically, ALL of the various Christian and Jewish Scriptures were 'sanctified' or 'canonized' long after the fact from various sources that are not 100% congruent.

If they are not 100% congrent then not one single one of them is The Unalterable Word Of God other then some individual or group decides THEY are sanctioned by devine inspiration to choose amongst the various versions.

For instance, ALL versions of the Old Testament have very high levels of congruety, but none of them are identical. Comparison between The Septuagent, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the King James/Hebrew old testament are illustraitive.

Specifically, the oldest known extant manuscript for the modern Hebrew/Protestant old testament is of midieval provenance. The Septuagent, while originating 200BCE, is extant in only two manuscripts from the century CE300. These are Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaticus.

The oldest extant versions of "Old Testament Books" are found in the Dead Sea Schrolls. Inconveniently, these are marginally more congruent with the Septuagent then the modern Hebrew/Protestant Old Testament.

I will address The New Testament later. However, The Current Hebrew Old Testament did not even exist as such until accumulated into a 'biblos' at or about the time of 100CE.

I'll address what I can of this later, when I have more than a lunch hour to do so.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Umm, what makes you think I don't ask Jews when I want to know something about Judaism? I distinguish between Messianic with I have described to people as "Jewish-style Christianity" and Rabbinic or Karaite Judiasm. When I asked my last question in this thread, I was perfectly happy to hear from Jews. When I said I wanted to compare Messianic Judaism with judaism in terms of legal structure offered, I said that distinguishing between Judaism and Messianic as well as between mainstream Christianity and Messianic which may share a soteriology and basic scriptures but does have some theological and cultural distinctives. I asked my last question thread on Judaism under the Judaism section rather than under some other section because I wanted an answer from Jews. And BTW, I read jewfaq.org. I've been to askmoses.org. I've read Judaism for Dummies (not very in depth but entertaining). I've been to Jews4judaism's website. My youtube subscriptions include a convert-now Orthodox Jew, a Reform Rabbi, and a channel on converting to Judaism.

Well obviously, I didn't know your background. All I saw was a person asking about Judaism and then responding to answers from various Christians. Kudos to you for checking out real Jewish sources.

[Dracula Girl]

Well obviously, I didn't know your background. All I saw was a person asking about Judaism and then responding to answers from various Christians. Kudos to you for checking out real Jewish sources.

Ah, thank you for the explanation. I just reply to them cause they reply to me and I have something to say back. If a non-Jew answers my question, you are certainly welcome to reply to my original post. I think I did get some posts later on in my previous thread that addressed my question presented in my initial post. Please do not hesitate to fill in recent unanswered parts of things I bring up.

[OneSizeFit]

I know it is late, but remind me what you mean by temple state? I want to compare laws in Judaism with Messianic Judaism (since this is oft considered another denomination of Christianity).

Anything pre 70AD is temple state Judaism, the temple was destroyed in 70AD, Judea was demolished in 130 AD.

Christianity, Josephus, Philo, the Maccabean material, the Essene material from the Dead Sea, and Rabbinic (Pharisee) material in the form of the Talmud give us insight into late stage 2nd temple Judaism.

There seems to have been quite a movement against 2nd temple Judaism, seeing it as corrupt, Robert Eisenman believes the Pharisees were the "seekers of smooth things" as described in the Essene sectarian documents, they were the ones who worked with Roman as supposed to opposing them. Jesus seemed to have been half way between a pharisee and Zealot/Sicari. They could also be the ones described as "tax collectors" in the NT, since they were given the duty of collecting fees on behalf of Rome after the destruction of the temple.

As far as Messianic Judaism, you need to be more specific. There are actual Jews who accept Jesus as the incarnation of YHWH, and thus accept the grace of God via the resurrection, and there are Messianic Gentiles who believe they are saved by keeping the Law of Moses.

[Rapalyea]

Hamster - You wrote: "Also, a little more information than I required in that last post...[regarding glutious maximus musculature and odoriferous associations]."

I have an inexplicable alergic reaction whenever I am confronted with inexpicable software design choices. I think it began with Windows 3.1. For instance, I would click on the button to explain the on/off choices for The Flux Capacitar. The explanation would be "Turns the Flux Capacitor On and Off." For this Bill Gates became the wealthiest man on planet earth.

To this day I encounter software trees that dead end with no friggn way of backing out of them. Not that long ago my sister would get into such a dead end with her Mac. I SWEAR the only way to back out was to get on your knees under the table and unplug the frign computer.

And so I admit to an over reaction when I encounter a posting screen that gives me not one single clue it even CAN be edited. I don't think these people are ACTUALLY insane, tempting as that conclusion may be. But clearly they are evidence of some sort of quantum alternative universe.

[Rapalyea]

ONE SIZE - Re the Jesus Movement, and Second Temple Internecene Conflict.

Jesus is often mistakenly, I believe, refered to as Jesus of Nazareth. This is an important issue because, in Jesus's time there does not seem to have been any town called Nazareth. There was, however, the Essene movement of the era that included a subcategory known as Nazarenes who were not much impressed with Second Temple Theology or Politics. http://www.thenazareneway.com/nazarene_or_nazareth.htm

I have not delved much into this, but there is an interesting Shroud Of Tourin publication that is directly relevant. Specifically, It claims to have deciphered an actual death certificate artifact image on the shroud that describes the deceased as Yesu The Nazarean.

This is not as far fetched as it sounds for several reasons. First, these various wordings have been debated for a long time, and are generally associated with Midieval Descriptions of the cloth that got transfered during storage. However, the terms seems to be Jesus the Nazarean, not Jesus of Nazareth.

Further, such death certificates were apparently routinely attached to the bodies of executed criminals. This was to enable the family to reliably recover the remains from the common grave generally used after such executions. The elapse time being one year.

I simply cite these things as curiosities for contemplation. By way of full disclosure, I have been forced to recant my original acceptance of the now infamous C-14 datings. But that is another story.

[Dracula Girl]

As far as Messianic Judaism, you need to be more specific. There are actual Jews who accept Jesus as the incarnation of YHWH, and thus accept the grace of God via the resurrection, and there are Messianic Gentiles who believe they are saved by keeping the Law of Moses.

Probably more the believe in Jesus/Yeshua as messiah and savior but also in such a way as to try to keep the laws because that is what was commanded.

Anastasia, you are the exception, then. Kudos to you for your thoroughness in research..

The real exceptions are the people at my messianic synagogue. A couple there even has a copy of the Chumash which I learned from them is a Jewish commentary on scripture. I don't even know how many books my rabbi has.

Our synagogue has a Hebrew course this fall that I doubt I will take because I don't have an income to pay for it, but would the prayers be considered modern Hebrew or Biblical or is that a part of Hebrew that has not evolved as much over the years? I mean like the blessings over the bread and wine, the mourner's kaddish, etc.

[Salty]

The real exceptions are the people at my messianic synagogue. A couple there even has a copy of the Chumash which I learned from them is a Jewish commentary on scripture.

Er, well, the Chumash is actually just the Torah, the five Books of Moses. Modern copies, however, usually are chock full of commentary. For example, the average page of my copy of the Stone Edition Chumash has more commentary than verses. But it's really interesting commentary, which is why I bought it.

[Dracula Girl]

Er, well, the Chumash is actually just the Torah, the five Books of Moses. Modern copies, however, usually are chock full of commentary. For example, the average page of my copy of the Stone Edition Chumash has more commentary than verses. But it's really interesting commentary, which is why I bought it.

Oh, so it is not necessarily commentary? I guess my friends had a modern copy then.