A Feeble Attempt to Answer JPH's Indictment of the Church

[Cow Poke]

I read JP's Indictment a few weeks ago, and it has been on my mind ever since.
I've really been giving it a mull.
I'm not so much here to argue against it, as to comment from a Pastor's perspective.

First, an indictment is simply a statement of allegations, and JP has laid out a good case.
Second, I largely agree with JP's statements, but would like to add to them.

(I could not post in the same area as JP's because, apparently, I don't have proper security clearance ... Hopefully, posting here will be acceptable.) (TWeb authorities are wise!)

EDIT: Thanks to Sparko for moving this thread!

JP's article can be found here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...d.php?t=77713:

I will abbreviate JP's 7 point charges, and answer in sequence. (I would add that JP has clearly stated that there are exceptions, and I'll claim one of those. )

1. Our churches do not educate people in the basics of their faith....

I have generally pastored "Country Churches", where the makeup of the congregation was largely blue collar or farm worker or ranchers or even migrant worker. I have really taken to heart the words of Jesus that "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me" (John 12:32).

Hence, I have made it a point to lift up Jesus, and Him crucified, buried and risen again. It works. It draws men. And men frequently have families, so women and children "come onboard".

Here's a challenge - when you have brand new Christians who are new to the faith, and in the same congregation you have Christians who pretty much "grew up in Church", the preaching on Sunday Morning can be a challenge. I try never to use a passing reference to, for example, "Moses struck the rock", because people unfamiliar with the Bible wouldn't have a clue. I try to include a very brief synopsis of any of those citations.

The sermons need to be challenging enough for the mature Christians, but basic enough for the new converts. Sunday Nights are more for "teaching" in my Churches than for preaching.

JP brings up an excellent point, however. I really wish I had had "Graded" classes on Sunday Nights for the various level of Christian's experience. A "seekers" class, a "basics" class, and a more advanced "apologetics" class. For that, I would love to have a Bible Teacher on staff who specializes in that. This is a definite "wish list" for future.

2. Because our people are not educated in these matters, they are caught "flat footed" when confronted...

Agree wholeheartedly. I always had that in the back of my mind, and thought about it like "judo". Some people know just enough judo or karate to be dangerous. Same think with Bible knowledge. And a person who is not rooted in the Word is "easy pickins" for cults or "whoever".

3. Some people are unaffected and simply go on their merry way...

I heard Blackaby years ago say "if you want to see What God is doing with your Church, look at the people he brings into your fellowship... their spiritual gifts, talents and abilities... God is equipping your Church. I took note! There are people who show up ready to SERVE, and if they are not given an opportunity to serve, they drift away. Others show up because they need to be ministered to. If they don't get what they need, they also drift away.

But, primarily, i believe you're talking about equiping people, and we do a pretty poor job of that.

4. Their pastors cannot answer questions...

This is a powerful statement. And laregly true! From this, I take counsel from that great theologian (being facetious here) Dirty Hairy, who said "a man has got to know his limitations". This is SO TRUE... a Pastor has GOT to know when he's in over his head. And have resources to send people to for specific areas of counsel. I seem to be gifted in "winning the lost", and I have been pretty successful at giving a BASIC solid foundation. But there needs to be more.

5. The lack of education also extends to the public sector....

I am AMAZED at the stuff some people believe, and how they often do not seem capable of reasoning through ideas or philosophies or theological matters. I sometimes preach a series of sermons I call "What were they THINKING" where i deal with some of these issues. But one of my favorite questions is "but do you KNOW that".... or "but HOW do you know that"... and one of the best ones of all... "Where does the Bible SAY that"?

Often, people seem to operate on what they "heard" the Bible says, and present it as "I know this is in the Bible somewhere..." and proceed to spout their ignorance. I can be kind of ornery... when somebody says "I don't know where this is in the Bible, but..." I interrupt and say "Why NOT?" They often look puzzled, and i ask, in a firm but kidding way... "Who's fault is it that you don't know where that is in the Bible?"

To some extent, we as Bible preachers and teachers need to do a better job, but we ALSO need to teach people to find answers on their own, and search. This post has challenged me to do a better job at teaching people how to use study tools. And I OFTEN tell my congregation "If i tell you something that doesn't ring true, you have a responsibility to ask me "Where is that in the Bible". Likewise, when expressing an OPINION, i always try to make that very clear in preaching... "now, this is only my OPINION, and I cannot show you a verse that says 'thus sayeth the Lord'... but I'll give the reason WHY i think that. Paul did this on several occasions.

6. Persons with questions come across skeptical literature in print or online....

Total agreement - no comment.

7. By this time it is often too late to even provide such people with sound material....

Again, total agreement.

Summary...
While i take this to heart, it is difficult in a smaller Church to provide the wide range of teaching and instruction in the limited time available. And since, apparently, God called me to a ministry to new Christians, and specifically lost people ABOUT to become new Christians, I pretty much stay at the "basic" end of the teaching spectrum. I don't have the formal educaiton that a lot of "Rev Pastor DMin" or such have, but I don't feel called to that.

When I first started in ministry, God seemed to really grip my heart as I heard the words...
(Mat 11:5 KJV) ...and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
(Luke 4:18 KJV) ...because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor...
(Luke 7:22 KJV) ...to the poor the gospel is preached.

When you list the things that can't help... wait.. Joel Osteen will not solve...???? (kidding)

You called this a "call to action", JP, and I'm taking this to heart.

from my perspective, I would LOVE to have some good solid Bible Teachers working with me "on the upper end" of the teaching spectrum, and I'll continue to focus on the "down and outers".

Finally, and this may be a whole new thread... when I HAVE found people who wanted to "join up" with me to be a Bible Teacher, they were often kooks and nuts! So there's a word of caution... Make SURE you know what they're teaching, and that it's truly Biblically Based, and not just some wacko off-shoot theology. There seems to be an abundance of "bible teachers" looking for a place to spread their foolishness.

[Sparko]

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[The Curtmudgeon]

Yes, CP, that's an excellent post. Many ministers, especially those in small and/or rural churches, don't have the resources they need. There should be resources, and it doesn't always have to be the pastor (of course, the pastor should always be preaching from what the Word says, to give the congregants the basic foundation of always checking things against the Scriptures). A teaching minister, or even just a good collection of resources (now including some of the better online stuff, like Tekton and Glenn Miller and Ben Witherington III, as well as a library of sound-doctrine books), should be available where the pastor is not equipped or perhaps called to that particular kind of ministry.

Of course, in our ten-second-attention-span world today, getting most people to accept the concept of looking it up can be hard, especially if it involves (*gasp*) "reading a book". Therefore the greater need for teachers, as opposed to teaching materials, unfortunately -- unfortunate because you can't spread hundreds or thousands of copies of a well-educated teacher among all the churches that need him/her. Maybe there's a need fo a DVD-based apologetics ministry: short lectures, accompanied by study notes, on particular topics. Whacha think, JPH? You up for a lotta video time?

The (I'd break too many video cameras, myself) Curtmudgeon

[Teluog]

Maybe there's a need fo a DVD-based apologetics ministry: short lectures, accompanied by study notes, on particular topics. Whacha think, JPH? You up for a lotta video time?

I think he already did that?

I should add that there is a lot of good stuff on the internet, which I believe is availalbe out in the country, although with slower connections.

Thanks for your take, CP!

[The Curtmudgeon]

I think he already did that?

Notice the difference between "one made-for-TV show" and "lotta video time".

I should add that there is a lot of good stuff on the internet, which I believe is availalbe out in the country, although with slower connections.

Of course there is -- the problem is not just putting in a computer with an Internet feed, it's organising the good material in such a way that users can find and use it without already knowing where it is or how to get to it, and without getting rabbit-holed into the nonsense stuff that's also out there. Essentially, and I mean no offense by this remark, we need a "baby-food" interface that will direct the immature Christian as well as the technologically-challenged user to the information that they need.

There are some excellent sites, such as JPH's, that can function as a sorta catch-all, but not even JPH covers everything.

Thanks for your take, CP!

The (motion made and seconded. All in favour, signify .) Curtmudgeon

[Cow Poke]

There are some excellent sites, such as JPH's, that can function as a sorta catch-all, but not even JPH covers everything.
The (motion made and seconded. All in favour, signify .) Curtmudgeon

OK, "back in the day" I used to use some material by Paul Little like Know Why you Believe... familiar? like dislike?

I would teach one chapter per week and actually issue a "diploma" of sorts.

As for the internet.. yes, the problem is there's SO MUCH out there, and people tend to find some of the strangest ideas and concepts. There would need to be a "guided course", so to speak.

[The Curtmudgeon]

OK, "back in the day" I used to use some material by Paul Little like Know Why you Believe... familiar? like dislike?

I would teach one chapter per week and actually issue a "diploma" of sorts.

Yeah, that's a good method. You don't want to bury them with it, especially if they've had little or no exposure to apologetics before, but give it to them in chewable chunks.

As for the internet.. yes, the problem is there's SO MUCH out there, and people tend to find some of the strangest ideas and concepts. There would need to be a "guided course", so to speak.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was leading at.

The (I could see doing that at my church, but how to get it spread further?) Curtmudgeon

[Cow Poke]

Yeah, that's a good method. You don't want to bury them with it, especially if they've had little or no exposure to apologetics before, but give it to them in chewable chunks.


The (I could see doing that at my church, but how to get it spread further?) Curtmudgeon

I really don't remember if it was Know What you Believe, or Know Why you Believe, but it was about 13 chapters, and you could even order the "preprinted diplomas"... This was, of course, before modern technology where we can actually print University Degrees and stuff, even for our cats! (Did I say CATS?)

AH... Know WHY... here... http://www.amazon.com/Know-Why-Belie...476754X#reader

TWELVE WEEK study, with 13'th week summary.

[jpholding]

Y Maybe there's a need fo a DVD-based apologetics ministry: short lectures, accompanied by study notes, on particular topics. Whacha think, JPH? You up for a lotta video time?

Dude, that's actually the plan once I get the current site format revamp done. I'll start with three experimental videos on the pagan copycat theories....remember our mutual friend in Tampa? He'll be playing Mithra in one of those videos.

If that works well, I'll do more, prioritizing articles that get the most traffic.

[jpholding]

I think he already did that?

Curt's right -- that was someone else's show. I need to do my own stuff next.

[jpholding]

As for the internet.. yes, the problem is there's SO MUCH out there, and people tend to find some of the strangest ideas and concepts. There would need to be a "guided course", so to speak.

Good stuff, CP. I'll bet you would have loved to see my lecture at ISCA on information mismanagement.

I commend you for standing out in the crowd at this difficult time!

[Cow Poke]

Good stuff, CP. I'll bet you would have loved to see my lecture at ISCA on information mismanagement.

I commend you for standing out in the crowd at this difficult time!

Thanks, JP.
I'm concerned, quite frankly, about the direction a lot of churches with the "feel good" and "entertainment" stuff...
and most of these "mega churches" you don't "join", you can just float in and out and there's no accountability.

EDIT: perhaps i should not say "most"... but the ones with which I'm familiar...

[Andius]

Mmhhh, you do a address a very valid point here. What you do adress is actually a matter of logistics in the end, in this case, the distribution of education materials and personnel within the Church.

I would have to say that one remedy (amongst many methinks) is how small church cells have an advantage over the much larger ones in matters of identifying the level of knowledge amongst her members, or at least the large ones that have no sense of cell division in administration. In my case, I belong in a house church that gathers every Saturday and Sunday, which gives me the opportunity to share the stuff I have found regarding Christian Thinktank and Tektonics Ministries. It consists of no more than 5-10 people, making it very easy to identify the level of knowledge of everyone within the small congregation.

Besides, if memory serves, Paul was sensitive to the degree of low level the people of Corinth when he was imparting the teachings of Jesus unto them. ( 1 Corinthians 3 ). But the author of Hebrews was also awares of the necessity of sending his target audience to the next level of knowledge.

I would have to say those who are spiritual (in the sense that they are within the spirit, and possess knowledge of it ) have a duty of spreading as much knowledge not only amongst ourselves (The Church), but also to those who demonstrate an interest in Christianity (such as our fellow TWebbers who are not members of the Church ). Just because I hold no position as an authority of the Church, does not lessen in any way my action and duty in sharing and teaching with others of my findings regarding Christianity with my fellow comrades in Christ (Such as sharing with them the findings of the Context Group ).

But hey, taking means of any way to teach is of vital importance, wether it be out in the fields in the farmlands, or in the jungle concretes of the cities.

[Teluog]

I'll bet you would have loved to see my lecture at ISCA on information mismanagement.

I would too! Was it recorded on video or audio?

I've come across a wealth of good info on the internet but it has taken me a year or two to collect what I have and it took some careful and tedious searching. Perhaps JPH could have a resources page on his revamped site with links? Or perhaps someone should just design a whole website dedicated entirely to providing links to the good stuff.

Education institution websites often have resource pages in them, although their websites need to be searched thoroughly for them.

But those who seek will find.

[jpholding]

I would too! Was it recorded on video or audio?

I wish it had been. I think it was one of my better efforts.

The next E-Block will have the text and PPT though.

Perhaps JPH could have a resources page on his revamped site with links?

That would fit with the new design, but I may need input into what to add. When I finish doing my own stuff, drop me a line on this.