Will you be resurrected, or will a look-alike CLONE live in your place

[David_A_Reed]

The biblical view is that an invisible part of you—your soul or spirit—survives the death of your body. ("fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul"—Matthew 10:28 KJV) It is still YOU. Later, YOU receive a glorified resurrected body, like Jesus.

In contrast to this, the Watchtower teaching is that YOU vanish into nothingness—totally gone. God later "brings a new body forth from the earthly elements, and in that body he places the same characteristics, the same distinctive qualities, the same memory, the same life pattern that the person had built up until the time of his death."—The Watchtower June 1, 1959, p. 333

So, in the Watchtower view the resurrected person is just a duplicate of the person who died—not the same soul or spirit with a new body.

The Watchtower Society admits that "someone may say, 'is he really the same person? Is he not just a copy?'" (Is This Life All There Is? p. 172) The Society goes on to argue, essentially, that it doesn't make any difference, since our molecules replace themselves constantly—an argument that avoids the real issue.

What if this "copy" or clone of you were made while you were still alive? (Picture the clone who looks just like you standing there next to you now.) And what if you were told that you will be annihilated into nothingness, but the clone will have everlasting life? That is not really the same as YOU receiving everlasting life, is it?

While there are many Bible verses where the words for soul and spirit do not refer to an immaterial thing that survives the death of the body, there are other verses where that is exactly what is meant.

One unmistakable example is found at Revelation 6:9-11, where even the Watchtower Society's New World Translation fails to hide the truth. This passage speaks of "the souls of those slaughtered" and says that they "cried with a loud voice" and received an answer to their appeal:

And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: "Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?" And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.
— Revelation 6:9-11 New World Translation

They had been killed, but their souls were alive in heaven. This should not come as a surprise, since Jesus said, "do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul." (Matthew 10:28 NWT) So, Jesus says the soul can survive the death of the body.

Jesus promises YOU everlasting life, if you become his follower -- not everlasting life for a clone of you as the Watchtower Society teaches.

David

[xcav8tor]

Hi David,

Seems you and I are in 100% agreement on this issue.

I opened a similar thread earlier called, "Do JWs Believe in Resurrection?" but no one responded. Just as you have stated, the JW's DO NOT believe in "RESURRECTION" at all, but merely "CLONING." My reasoning was similar to yours: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...30&postcount=1

And thanks for documenting the JW POV from their literature - that's something I should have done. While I have discussed this problem with several of them over the years, none of them seem to appreciate the serious implications of their teaching (ie. that "annihilation" would be FOREVER). Maybe you will have better luck than I convincing them.

Cheers,
xcav8tor

[Sparko]

very good point David.

another example would be if a scientist invented a teleporter, but instead of "beaming" you to your destination, he scanned your body, then sent the information to the receiver, built you there from matter already at the receiver, then merely dematerialized the original you, putting your matter in storage to use for the next person.

Then one day the machine breaks and doesn't disintegrate the original you. Now there would be two of you. the original and the copy. I would never use a machine like that would you? One that just makes a copy of you then destroys the real you?

but that is what the watchtower teaches how God resurrects a person. Just makes a copy of them.

[apostoli]

very good point David.

another example would be if a scientist invented a teleporter, but instead of "beaming" you to your destination, he scanned your body, then sent the information to the receiver, built you there from matter already at the receiver, then merely dematerialized the original you, putting your matter in storage to use for the next person.

Then one day the machine breaks and doesn't disintegrate the original you. Now there would be two of you. the original and the copy. I would never use a machine like that would you? One that just makes a copy of you then destroys the real you?

but that is what the watchtower teaches how God resurrects a person. Just makes a copy of them.

Sparko,

There is a problem with your propositions: Lets assume you are crippled, ridden with painful cancers, agonising kidney ailments and stomach ulcers. Would you want to be resurrected as you are?

Peace

NB: A clone by definition, does not have the same identifying characterisics nor psychology of the host, merely the same essential biology.

[Sparko]

Sparko,

There is a problem with your propositions: Lets assume you are crippled, ridden with painful cancers, agonising kidney ailments and stomach ulcers. Would you want to be resurrected as you are?

Peace

NB: A clone by definition, does not have the same identifying characterisics nor psychology of the host, merely the same essential biology.

The point of comparison with JW and Christian doctrines is that in Christianity, even if God makes you an entirely new body, your SPIRIT has not been destroyed. It can be put into a new body and it will still be you. Your mind, soul, spirit continues on and you are still you. In JW theology you have no eternal spirit. When you die, you cease to exist as you. You are just a dead piece of meat. God has to recreate you from scratch including your mind. But that would just be a copy of the real "you"

[apostoli]

The point of comparison with JW and Christian doctrines is that in Christianity, even if God makes you an entirely new body, your SPIRIT has not been destroyed. It can be put into a new body and it will still be you. Your mind, soul, spirit continues on and you are still you. In JW theology you have no eternal spirit. When you die, you cease to exist as you. You are just a dead piece of meat. God has to recreate you from scratch including your mind. But that would just be a copy of the real "you"

Hence the book of life referenced in revelation and elsewhere, the way I see it as is a download. I don't precerive me as my flesh but as my memory of experience.

Peace

[Sparko]

Hence the book of life referenced in revelation and elsewhwere, the way I see it as is a download. I don't precerive me as my flesh but as my memory of experience.

Peace

well the bible is pretty clear that our glorified body will be a transformation of our original one, however God does that. And it is clear that we have a spirit that lives on after death, so whether you look at it as a "download" or a "reunion" it is still "us" - but the JW doctrine has you ceasing to exist and God making a new you that might have some of the same memories as the old you, but is not you in any way. You are dead and gone. The new guy might think he is you but he is just a copy. a recreation.

[apostoli]

well the bible is pretty clear that our glorified body will be a transformation of our original one, however God does that. And it is clear that we have a spirit that lives on after death, so whether you look at it as a "download" or a "reunion" it is still "us" - but the JW doctrine has you ceasing to exist and God making a new you that might have some of the same memories as the old you, but is not you in any way. You are dead and gone. The new guy might think he is you but he is just a copy. a recreation.

The apostle Paul does refer to the new creation ;-)

[Sparko]

The apostle Paul does refer to the new creation ;-)

not in referrence to the resurrection, but in regards to our salvation. we ARE new creations right now in that sense. But we obviously are the same person in the same body. There is continuity.

[apostoli]

not in referrence to the resurrection, but in regards to our salvation. we ARE new creations right now in that sense. But we obviously are the same person in the same body. There is continuity.

Basically I agree. However, the distinction in theology is our psychology.

[apostoli]

well the bible is pretty clear that our glorified body will be a transformation of our original one, however God does that. And it is clear that we have a spirit that lives on after death, so whether you look at it as a "download" or a "reunion" it is still "us" - but the JW doctrine has you ceasing to exist and God making a new you that might have some of the same memories as the old you, but is not you in any way. You are dead and gone. The new guy might think he is you but he is just a copy. a recreation.

This may be off topic, but I recently saw several science docos that raise interesting questions: 1. apparently the spine has memory, and doctors are investigating the making of links for spinal patients. 2. Heart replacements: benefactors develop the characteristics of the donor (?)

Peace

[David_A_Reed]

Hi David,

Seems you and I are in 100% agreement on this issue.

I opened a similar thread earlier called, "Do JWs Believe in Resurrection?" but no one responded. Just as you have stated, the JW's DO NOT believe in "RESURRECTION" at all, but merely "CLONING." My reasoning was similar to yours: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...30&postcount=1

And thanks for documenting the JW POV from their literature - that's something I should have done. While I have discussed this problem with several of them over the years, none of them seem to appreciate the serious implications of their teaching (ie. that "annihilation" would be FOREVER). Maybe you will have better luck than I convincing them.

Cheers,
xcav8tor

Hi xcav8tor,

Yes, I just read your post now. You presented an excellent argument, and hit the nail right on the head.

My original post was similar to material I originally wrote in my Comments from the Friends newsletter back in 1997, and then published in a booklet that year titled After Death — What?
...according to Jesus. The entire booklet is now online in web format at http://www.cftf.com/death/index.html.

You made the point very well in your post. The Bible promises believers immortality; the Watchtower promises its people annihilation, even though a copy of them would supposedly be built later.

From my own experience as a zealous JW for 13 years, my fellow JWs were always hoping desperately for Armageddon to come soon, so they could live through it, rather than hope for resurrection. I saw long-time JWs grow old and die very bitter because they did not live long enough to go through Armageddon.

This attitude may have been based, in part, on a subconscious understanding that only a copy of them would benefit from the Watchtower's resurrection, not they themselves.

This is quite a contrast to those who know and trust Jesus Christ, and who face death with a vibrant hope that they will be with him, as he implied in prayer in John chapter 17, and as he clearly promised throughout the Gospels.

David