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Dear Freethinkers

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  • Dear Freethinkers

    An Open Letter.

    The link can be found here.

    -------

    What do I have to say to those espousing freethinking? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Dear Freethinkers,

    I want to write to you today because I'm frankly confused by what I see of you. You see, you claim to hold to no statements of faith. You claim that by being a skeptic, the only position you have to have is to not affirm the existence of God. You claim that there are no doctrines to your position. Despite all of this, most all of you seem to think remarkably exactly alike.

    You all come right out of the gates often with one of your favorite mantras. "No evidence." Are you really thinking this? Are you thinking that every theist and Christian in history has just never considered that they have no evidence for what they believe? Sure, you might meet a layman like that, but do you really think everyone is like that?

    When it comes to talking about God, we are told there is no evidence. Is that really supposed to convince us? You see, some of us read these things called "books." We don't rely on Google, YouTube, and Wikipedia. We also read books that disagree with us. When we say we believe in God, we do so because we are convinced that that is where the arguments lead. In fact, while we agree on the conclusion, we can disagree on the arguments. Some people like the ontological argument. I don't. I like the Thomistic arguments. Some don't. Some people think scientific apologetics works well. I disagree. That's okay.

    In fact, this is what real thinking is all about. Real thinking is not just seeing if you find a conclusion that agrees with you. Real thinking is asking if the argument really does have evidence for it that leads to the conclusion. Just because I agree with the conclusion that God exists, it doesn't mean I agree with the argument given for it. In fact, I daresay I have gone after more Christian apologists using bad arguments than many of you have.

    Another favorite one of mine is when you say that there's no evidence Jesus ever existed. Now perhaps in some cases, atheism could be understandable, such as with the problem of evil, though I do not see that as a defeater at all, but this one really takes the cake. You know what makes this even funnier? So many of you naturally agree among yourselves that creationism is nonsense and we need to listen to the consensus of modern science. Fair enough, but you do the exact opposite with history. You don't listen to the consensus of modern historians and mock Christians for not listening to the consensus of modern scientists.

    You see, your position is even more of a joke because I can find you a list of scientists who dissent from Darwin. Are they right? Beats me. I don't argue that issue. If you want to find historians who dissent from the base existence of Jesus, you can count the number on two hands at the most. Note that by historians, I mean people with Ph.D.s in a field relevant to NT studies. I don't mean just any Joe Blow you can find on the internet.

    You may not like it, but as soon as you start espousing mythicism, I immediately have no reason to take you seriously anymore. I know I'm dealing with someone who doesn't read the best material. I know this will be a shock, but outside his internet fanbase, Richard Carrier just isn't taken seriously. You can guarantee you won't be by hanging on his every word. In fact, as a Christian apologist, I thank God for Richard Carrier. He's doing a great service by dumbing down his fellow atheists to accept the conspiracy theory of mythicism, and yes. That's all it is. It ranks right up there with saying the moon landing is a hoax or that 9/11 was an inside job.

    Since we briefly spoke about science, let's go on with that topic. You all seem to think that if something cannot be demonstrated by science, then it is nonsense. It's as if mankind had no knowledge whatsoever and never knew anything until science came along. This gets even funnier when you talk about miracles. "We know today that virgins don't give birth, that people don't walk on water, and that people don't rise from the dead." You really think people didn't know that stuff back then? You think they were just ignorant? Sure, they weren't doing experiments and such, but they knew basic facts that we wouldn't disagree with. You don't have to be a world-class scientist to know that when someone dies, you bury them, or that it takes sex to make a baby. They all knew this.

    The fact is that we don't really have a beef with science. We might disagree on what is scientific and what isn't. There are Christians who have no problem with evolution. There are Christians who do. There are Christians who think the world is billions of years old. There are Christians who don't. We debate this amongst ourselves. None of us though say that science is bunk and should be disregarded. Perhaps we are misinformed on what is and isn't science, but we are not opposed to science.

    In fact, you never seem to think about what you say about the scientific method. You never pause to ask if the claim that all truth must be shown by the scientific method is itself shown by the scientific method. You don't even consider that science is an inductive field. Sure, some claims might have more certainty than others, but none of them are absolute claims proven.

    I also find it so amusing when you talk about the Bible. You all have the hang-ups that fundamentalist Christians that you condemn do. You think that the Bible absolutely has to be inerrant. Many of us hold to inerrancy, but some of us actually do not, and we debate that. Still, even many of us who hold to inerrancy do not see it as an essential and think Christianity can be true and inerrancy false. For you, the Bible is an all-or-nothing game. Either everything in it is true or none of it is. This is remarkably similar to your position on Jesus where either He was the miracle-working God-man Messiah who rose from the dead or He never existed. Your positions are entirely black and white. There is no shade of gray.

    You then throw out 101 Bible contradictions and expect us to keel over immediately. We don't. Many of these, you've never even studied yourself. You've just gone to a web site, got a list, and then suddenly thought you were an authority. It never seems to occur to you that in thousands of years of studying the Bible no one has ever seen these before.

    When it comes to interpretation, you have a big hang-up on literacy. You think that everything in the Bible has to be "literal" although you have not given any idea of what that means nor have you even bothered to tell us why that must be so. The Bible is a work of literature like many other books and it uses all manner of ways of speaking. It uses metaphor, simile, hyperbole, allegory, etc.

    You also seem to think that the Bible has to be immediately understandable to 21st century Western English speakers. God should be clear. Well, why should He? It's as if you think you are part of the only people who ever lived and God should have made things clear to you immediately without having to do any work whatsoever.

    In all of this, you're just like the fundamentalists you condemn. The difference isn't your mindset. It's only your loyalties. You think everything in the book is wrong. They think everything in it is right. None of you really give arguments. It's just a personal testimony and faith.

    And yes, you do have personal testimonies. I've lost track of how many times I've heard "I used to be a Christian, but". I mean, do you want me to break out a chorus of "Just As I Am" at that point? It's like all you used in your Christian days was a personal testimony and today, that's still all you have. All I normally see is you went from an uninformed Christian to an uninformed skeptic.

    As for faith, you never seem to understand it. You've bought into all the new atheist gunk that says that faith is believing without evidence. You never bother to consult scholars of the Greek and Hebrew languages to see what the Bible means by the term. What we mean is a trust that is based on that which has shown itself to be reliable.

    You would be greatly benefited by going to a library sometime. You see, if all you read are the new atheists, you're not going to make a dent. You might get some of what is called low-hanging fruit, in that people as uninformed as you are will be convinced, but not people who actually do study this kind of stuff seriously. You think that Google is enough to show you know everything. It isn't. You don't know how to sift through information and evaluate it. All you do is look and see if it agrees with you. If it makes Christians or Christianity look stupid, it has to be 100% true.

    You should also know this doesn't describe all atheists and skeptics out there. There are atheists and skeptics that do actually read scholarly works that disagree with them. I can have discussions with them. We can talk about the issues. They can agree easily that Jesus existed without thinking they have to commit ritual suicide at that point. They can have no problem discussing scholarly works. Many of these would even say that while they disagree with Christians, that a Christian can have justification for his belief and is not necessarily an idiot for being a Christian. You could learn a lot from them. Be like them. Don' live in the bubble of just reading what agrees with you and buying everything you read on the internet. Study and learn.

    Until you do this, freethinkers remind me of a slogan someone used years ago that I have taken. It's not original to me, but I like it. With freethinking, you get what you pay for. Why not pay the price of being an informed thinker by reading and studying. You're not hurting us by your actions. You're only hurting yourself and your fellow skeptics.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    I want to write to you today because I'm frankly confused by what I see of you. You see, you claim to hold to no statements of faith. You claim that by being a skeptic, the only position you have to have is to not affirm the existence of God. You claim that there are no doctrines to your position. Despite all of this, most all of you seem to think remarkably exactly alike.


    And yes, you do have personal testimonies. I've lost track of how many times I've heard "I used to be a Christian, but". I mean, do you want me to break out a chorus of "Just As I Am" at that point? It's like all you used in your Christian days was a personal testimony and today, that's still all you have. All I normally see is you went from an uninformed Christian to an uninformed skeptic.
    These especially.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

    Comment


    • #3
      Can't one be a freethinker and yet believe in the existence of a historical Jesus?
      And if some of the Bible is false, doesn't that make Christianity less valid of a religion?
      Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

      "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

      "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
        Can't one be a freethinker and yet believe in the existence of a historical Jesus?
        And if some of the Bible is false, doesn't that make Christianity less valid of a religion?
        For the first, yes.

        For the second, no.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
          Can't one be a freethinker and yet believe in the existence of a historical Jesus?
          You can be a freethinker and yet be a Christian.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

            For the second, no.
            It may not make it less valid, but it certainly makes its validity less believable.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
              You all seem to think that if something cannot be demonstrated by science, then it is nonsense.
              Not really, but as AronRa so often says, “if you can’t show it, you don’t know it”. The freethinker is unimpressed by creeds or dogma. Christianity is an obsolete way of thinking about the world that many people cling to because they have a false idea of what they are. Reality is unfamiliar to them and it frightens them. Help is available, and it’s not called Jesus.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                You claim that by being a skeptic, the only position you have to have is to not affirm the existence of God.
                It’s not that either. The freethinker has no need of that hypothesis. Certainly in the modern world, to people with modern sensibilities and a reasonable understanding of reality as explained by science, God is a truly meaningless concept.

                All I normally see is you went from an uninformed Christian to an uninformed skeptic.
                Apologetics is not knowledge. Escaping religion is about gaining knowledge.
                Last edited by firstfloor; 11-27-2016, 05:24 AM.
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post

                  Apologetics is not knowledge. Escaping religion is about gaining knowledge.
                  ". . . Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. . . ." -- James 1:27.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    Escaping religion is about gaining knowledge.
                    Based upon unsupported assumption.
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post

                      You also seem to think that the Bible has to be immediately understandable to 21st century Western English speakers. God should be clear. Well, why should He?
                      It is ridiculous to suppose that a divine being wishing to communicate with a reasonably sophisticated, modern audience would use ancient fables about creation, prophesies and their fulfilment, virgin births, reanimation of dead flesh, talking animals and other magical incidents that even after being decoded by apologetics make no sense whatsoever. The only thing keeping the religioso in this bizarre mindset is fear of their self-invented hell, which vision is drilled into them from a very young age because their seniors think it’s good for them to live their lives in abject terror of (weirdly) a loving Father.

                      God would be a lot more convincing if He just sent a text message to our mobile phones saying “look up” and there He was with His enormous bearded head leaning out of the clouds and giving us a wave. Where are all the ‘with God’ selfies?

                      Mainly because the traditional religions are so conservative (arrogantly obsolete) in their outlook they would do well to start afresh rather than endlessly reciting Paul, singing ancient and dreary hymns and muttering pathetic pleas to ingratiate themselves with their awful God. Get real and get a real life. Let’s devise an exit strategy fast before religion drags us all into the pit of doom.
                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I wonder if any fundy atheists would still hold to their atheism even on Judgement Day? They could just claim to think God was really just the most advanced alien entity or something. That just happens to have all the attributes that are attributed to God in Christian theology...
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                          It is ridiculous to suppose that a divine being wishing to communicate with a reasonably sophisticated, modern audience would use ancient fables about creation, prophesies and their fulfilment, virgin births, reanimation of dead flesh, talking animals and other magical incidents that even after being decoded by apologetics make no sense whatsoever. The only thing keeping the religioso in this bizarre mindset is fear of their self-invented hell, which vision is drilled into them from a very young age because their seniors think it’s good for them to live their lives in abject terror of (weirdly) a loving Father.

                          God would be a lot more convincing if He just sent a text message to our mobile phones saying “look up” and there He was with His enormous bearded head leaning out of the clouds and giving us a wave. Where are all the ‘with God’ selfies?

                          Mainly because the traditional religions are so conservative (arrogantly obsolete) in their outlook they would do well to start afresh rather than endlessly reciting Paul, singing ancient and dreary hymns and muttering pathetic pleas to ingratiate themselves with their awful God. Get real and get a real life. Let’s devise an exit strategy fast before religion drags us all into the pit of doom.
                          Quite the scathing rebuke, FF. I don't think it would be fair to mock your reply here as I'm sure practically every Christian has thought somewhere along similar lines at times. I think we as Christian's like to dress doubt up to make it look a bit respectable but the above diatribe is what, I think, accurately characterizes doubt that many wrestle with.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Regarding evidence; why is it that evidence for religious belief is so hard to conjure? We do not, for example, have a proper definition of God – what is it? Instead, we get a list of abilities and actions attributed to God – God smote this and God smote that - completely missing the point that abilities and actions do not define what it is? Saying that the sun “shines” does not tell us what the sin IS. And it is easy to write stories of actions and abilities in a book that relate to nothing real – see Harry Potter, etc. Just as any Harry Potter book is not evidence for the existence of Harry Potter, The Bible is not evidence for the existence of God. The author MAKES the character speak! [The religioso get around this particular bear trap by claiming that God wrote (inspired) the book – so there! Unfortunately, such a childish argument fails to consider the more obvious possibility that an author might deliberately put words in a character’s mouth and consequently is only convincing to those desperate to be convinced.] So where does a rational adult start to look for God? First of all you have to be able to recognise evidence and evaluate it conscientiously. You have to be able to say accurately what the facts are. [In my experience, the religioso come to the evidence (say, The Bible) with such strong presuppositions that they are often unable to determine what the facts are.] You have to be able to evaluate a range of possible explanations for the facts and put them in order of probability. If you think it is not a difficult problem then please show me your simplest and best evidence for the existence of God?
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              It is ridiculous to suppose that a divine being wishing to communicate with a reasonably sophisticated, modern audience would use ancient fables about creation, prophesies and their fulfilment, virgin births, reanimation of dead flesh, talking animals and other magical incidents that even after being decoded by apologetics make no sense whatsoever. The only thing keeping the religioso in this bizarre mindset is fear of their self-invented hell, which vision is drilled into them from a very young age because their seniors think it’s good for them to live their lives in abject terror of (weirdly) a loving Father.

                              God would be a lot more convincing if He just sent a text message to our mobile phones saying “look up” and there He was with His enormous bearded head leaning out of the clouds and giving us a wave. Where are all the ‘with God’ selfies?

                              Mainly because the traditional religions are so conservative (arrogantly obsolete) in their outlook they would do well to start afresh rather than endlessly reciting Paul, singing ancient and dreary hymns and muttering pathetic pleas to ingratiate themselves with their awful God. Get real and get a real life. Let’s devise an exit strategy fast before religion drags us all into the pit of doom.
                              Hi.

                              face_of_god_cloud_by_jamesbrey-d288n7k.jpg

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