Death

[Sir-Think-A-Lot]

PThat is a somehwat valid point. But I don't run around in public and yell at random people that "DEATH IS FINAL!" and "THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE!" and "HOW CAN YOU LIVE AFTER YOUR BODY DECAYS INTO DUST???"

Isnt this EXACTLY what you are doing right this second? And dont you have your own site dedicated to showing Christianity false?

[JimL]

Just for you, Jim....



{from the link in my previous post.}

Some examples pf jimbo's use of this fallacy in the OP {my comments in brackets like these}:

Maxvel

In your post though, you state his original position and his supposed emotive language, Anonymous, fantastical, absurd, and uncorroborated, which is evidence in itself, but then you leave out the reasons he gives for his position. he states as evidence: eternal life clearly goes against everything we know to be true about biological life. So it is not a logical fallacy.

As far as the existence or the non existence of the soul goes, he is only stating the fact that you believe it to exist and to magically teleport to a heavenly place after death which you do, and for evidence against this he explains that there is absolutely no scientific evidence ever to support such a claim.
So if you did not omit half of what he said in your response then they are not logical fallacies and your charge is a false as well as a hypocritical one.

Edited to add: Oolon's post sums up jimbo's approach very well. Jim, if you bother to research previous threads by jimbo you will see the repeated patterns of use of emotive language to prejudice the discussion, blatant caricatures and mis-representations of Christian beliefs and a almost complete lack of any attempt to genuinely understand others positions. Jimbo almost acts like a troll.

Yes I agree, but this goes for both sides of the issue. I do it, you just did it, and I think we all get a little carried away sometimes but it is I think up to ourselves not to allow the emotive language get in the way of our thoughtsand responses to the main points
being made.

[MaxVel]

Maxvel

In your post though, you state his original position and his supposed emotive language, Anonymous, fantastical, absurd, and uncorroborated, which is evidence in itself, but then you leave out the reasons he gives for his position.

I don't see how the terms jimbo uses count as actual evidence... ... you did notice how he just asserted things that pre-judge the argument?

If I said that 'JimL's beliefs are mere wishful thinking based on his selfish desire not to be held morally responsible, and anchored in a mish-mash of science worship, poor logic and New Atheist fandom.' how would you react? Would you think that I was interested in an honest dialogue or simply looking for a chance to trash your beliefs? Would you think that I had an actual understanding of what you believed and any respect for you as a person?

I think you will answer 'No' to both of those questions.

That's how jimbo generally comes across to me. Why should I waste my time with him? He doesn't have to accept my beliefs, or agree with what I say or think, but if he wants to discuss things then he needs to exercise simple courtesies like respecting others as people of intellectual integrity.

he states as evidence: eternal life clearly goes against everything we know to be true about biological life. So it is not a logical fallacy.

That part isn't, I agree. But it's hardly a strong argument either. It's not like what we currently know about pretty much everything is 'all that can be known' about that topic. And if Jesus really did die, and really was resurrected, then that's evidence for eternal life. And I think there are some good reasons to accept that Jesus did just that.

As far as the existence or the non existence of the soul goes, he is only stating the fact that you believe it to exist and to magically teleport to a heavenly place after death which you do,

No I don't. I have no belief at all in 'magical teleportation' and the use of those terms shows a lack of understanding of the general christian belief... that lack is either through simple ignorance and laziness, or deliberate.

and for evidence against this he explains that there is absolutely no scientific evidence ever to support such a claim.

Jimbo can't see that it is illogical to demand 'scientific evidence' for something that is claimed to be non-material. It's like demanding a color photograph of the Invisible Man from someone who believes he exists, and when none is produced saying "Ah hah! See. there's no evidence for the Invisible Man!"

So if you did not omit half of what he said in your response then they are not logical fallacies and your charge is a false as well as a hypocritical one.

No. Jimbo can get a proper answer from me when he makes a proper post. I have previously answered his posts but frankly it's a waste of my time, for reasons I explained above.

If I started to use language and an approach that you felt showed a complete disrespect for you as a person, and an unwillingness to take what you believe seriously enough to try and actually understand it as you believe it, would you continue responding carefully and thoughtfully to me?

Yes I agree, but this goes for both sides of the issue. I do it, you just did it

No. The bulk of jimbo's post was an Appeal to Ridicule.

I have responded to many of his posts previously, and read many more, and I have rarely seen him take the time to seriously understand what Christians actually believe. I have seen many of his claims refuted and debunked, and seen him come out with the same old 'arguments' in another OP a bit later.

, and I think we all get a little carried away sometimes but it is I think up to ourselves not to allow the emotive language get in the way of our thoughtsand responses to the main points
being made.

So if jimbo can't or won't act with a modicum of respect, despite having his intemperate language and strawmen pointed out to him repeatedly by numerous posters - including atheists - we just have to put up with it?



Jimbo acts like a , and until that changes he will be treated like one.

[gharfish]

Jesus thought that we (mankind) naturally ought to look forward to and want to see the kingdom of God and it prevail, and promised that a loving God (he was the one incarnation of Him) would not let death win out. Jesus in His resurrection made it possible--is offered, the reversal of the enemy that is our death. There is forgiveness of sins in trusting Jesus; therefore life can be made permanent for anyone through Him. We must accept God's offered grace, here and now, or else be fairly judged for our known [to us] sins. And our conscience alone condemns us; think about what God knows. Be pardoned; why not ? Go to Jesus.

Between Jesus and Jimbo on the topic of death, I'm going with Jesus. Jimbo may say he knows just as much, for 'dead men can tell no tales' of the afterlife, but, still, my faith is in Jesus' claims about it instead.

Death is the chief sorrow--the loss of all loses--the irreversible final terror of human existence. It's irreversible unless...! (John 3: 16)

If someone hasn't yet seen this is so, about death, then it's only because they are not yet familiar enough with it ! Jimbo must be far removed from death, as a witness to it, as of today. So, sure, he can talk about death in this bravely brainy and detached way, even about his own death..and including the death of those of his, still living, loved ones too. Such cooly expressed resurrection is "bogus beyond belief" on-line sentiments here will change when death does eventually show fully it's awful face, upon it's arrival there with him off-line.




>

[Pilgrim]

(looks in to see if Jimbo offers anything new....)

nope, same old crap he's posted a million times before and then run away from.

[Hamster]

I would really like to know how you folks think you are going to get to live forever.

Do you really think that you are something other than a flesh and bone primate? Do you really think you are something else? Do you think you can somehow overcome cell death, brain death, and experience anything at all when all your sensory organs are gone and the brain that interprets the signals from your nonexistent sensory organs has been decayed away?

Yes I do, because if I thought that we were simply annihilated at death with nothing to show for how we lived our lives, it would render almost everything I do absurd. I don't find my life to be absurd (nor the lives of other people), I know it's significant, so I reject the idea that human beings are simply complex patterns of material waddling around on an insignificant rock. That has nothing to do with wish-fulfillment. I know from experience that human beings are not valueless genetic machines covering the earth like insects.

So starting from that I have many worldview options which acknowledge that fact, but atheistic naturalism is not one of them.

you have to realize that if something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Human beings are too good to be true. My family and friends are too good to be true. And yet they are true. So them not being completely erased and devoured by worms seems reasonable. And that has nothing to do with a vague "hope" a that I'll be reunited with my dead aunt beyond the grave someday. My hypothetical aunt's existence would be a good reason that your view of the world isn't true.

Life is very short. Do you really want to waste any of it living in a delusion?

If life is what you say it is, then who cares about delusions? Do I care if a termite in a colony somewhere in africa thinks it's a bullfrog? However, since I know believing in delusions is not a good thing, your view, where it is simply irrelevant, must not be true.

[Metacrock]

I would really like to know how you folks think you are going to get to live forever.

Do you really think that you are something other than a flesh and bone primate? Do you really think you are something else? Do you think you can somehow overcome cell death, brain death, and experience anything at all when all your sensory organs are gone and the brain that interprets the signals from your nonexistent sensory organs has been decayed away? What will "you" (or I) really be at that point?

I understand very well how attractive eternal life is. I would love to live forever too. But you have to realize that if something seems too good to be true, it probably is. Getting granted eternal life in exchange for simple faith in absurd claims is too good to be true. Eternal life clearly goes against everything we know to be true about biological life.

Step back for a moment from the faith you have in the anonymous, fantastical, absurd, uncorroborated stories in the Bible and look in the mirror. Understand what you are. You are a physical being, you will age, and you will inevitably die. Few if any people want to die, and that is why religions like Christianity that sell the hope of eternal life tend to do very well. They address the (nearly) universal fear of death.

What's that you say? You have an invisible "soul" which magically teleports itself to a heavenly paradise when you die? Tell me, please, what this "soul" is. What is it made out of? How does it function? How does it move?

I don't think you actually know what a "soul" is and I don't think you ever will. I think it is a nonsensical term invented to support the notion of eternal life. I have never had any religious person explain what it is too me in any kind of a coherent fashion, and I have never seen or read about any good supporting evidence for such a thing.

Life is very short. Do you really want to waste any of it living in a delusion?

Cheers,

Jimbo

you need to take your own advice man. you will die. what will it be like? where will you wind up? What will your life have been worth? well I got to say a bunch of sarcastic things on a message broad.

If you really think that "eternal life" means a continuation of flesh and blood existence and one actually dies that's so inane. how could you possibly not understand, you die and your consciousness lives in after life.

did you really not know that? why are you doing this? You clearly don't known much about Christianity, why don't you try learning something first?

[Metacrock]

Yes I do, because if I thought that we were simply annihilated at death with nothing to show for how we lived our lives, it would render almost everything I do absurd. I don't find my life to be absurd (nor the lives of other people), I know it's significant, so I reject the idea that human beings are simply complex patterns of material waddling around on an insignificant rock. That has nothing to do with wish-fulfillment. I know from experience that human beings are not valueless genetic machines covering the earth like insects.

So starting from that I have many worldview options which acknowledge that fact, but atheistic naturalism is not one of them.



Human beings are too good to be true. My family and friends are too good to be true. And yet they are true. So them not being completely erased and devoured by worms seems reasonable. And that has nothing to do with a vague "hope" a that I'll be reunited with my dead aunt beyond the grave someday. My hypothetical aunt's existence would be a good reason that your view of the world isn't true.



If life is what you say it is, then who cares about delusions? Do I care if a termite in a colony somewhere in africa thinks it's a bullfrog? However, since I know believing in delusions is not a good thing, your view, where it is simply irrelevant, must not be true.

yea!!! good one man! two thumbs up

[Sparko]

another Jimbo burp.

[John Goddard]

That is a somehwat valid point. But I don't run around in public and yell at random people that "DEATH IS FINAL!" and "THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE!" and "HOW CAN YOU LIVE AFTER YOUR BODY DECAYS INTO DUST???"

Think advanced technology like cloning. God could have angels do that to resurrect the dead, maybe. Or maybe some kind of time travel. Even scientists think that's possible.

And then consider maybe unbelievers will be given the same technology so they can resurrect dead atheists left behind to do all sorts of things, like be pets or slaves for more powerful unbelievers, forever.

Maybe that's what Hell is, being left to the mercy of those like yourself who reject God.

[lilpixieofterror]

Uh, this is a Christian apologetics board, Pixie. Right? Is this particular topic off limits here? Please consult with the management and let me know.

*rolls eyes*

So there is a reason you have a web site dedcated to venting about what you dislike about Christianity?

Fine. I am not standing in the doorway of a church keeping people out. This is a Christian apologetics board, remember? Is this topic off limits here?

And yet you go around with every last one of your post to vent against what you dislike about Christianity.

I just made a will, for one thing. But more importantly, I don't like living in a world surrounded by religious people who demonize me and regard me as evil and worthless because I don't share their delusional beliefs. When such people put up a public discussion board up and invite all-comers to post their thoughts about their beliefs, I am more than willing to oblige them.

I guess you can't spot the irony in your own sentence, so I underlined it just in case you missed it. You call people delusional for not agreeing with you and wonder why they demonize you and regard you as evil?

Can I do that Pixie?

Can you spot your own bigotry?

Am I evil, Pixie? Am I going to hell, Pixie? Am I a worthless sinner, Pixie?

Everybody is good and evil Jimbo. Even the worst people are capable of doing good and even the best people are capable of doing evil. Are you a worthless sinner? No more than myself or the rest of us.

If you believe crap like this, I am going to tell you that you are wrong in every way that I can. Don't like it? Too bad. You are here on a Christian apologetics board so you should grow thicker skin.

*rolls eyes*

I see you don't learn, do you? It's a simple concept, you want respect, treat others in return. Going around and calling Christians delusional isn't going to change anything. Notice how atheist like CWC don't get other Christians calling her evil and even have had us stand up for her when some self-rightous bigot decides to say something. Want to know why? She isn't going around calling people delusional, while being unable to understand that what comes around goes around.

You don't think this is an important or serious topic, Pixie? Do you really think I am just trolling? I asked important questions, and so far no one has provided good answers.

The fact you are reading things into my answer is an indication that you are just trolling.

[FlimFlamboyant]

Do you really think you are something else?

My wife seems to think so.

She might be slightly biased.

[Kenny]

My wife seems to think so.

She might be slightly biased.

Really? My wife doesn't seem to think so about me!

[UrbanMonk]

I would really like to know how you folks think you are going to get to live forever.

Hi Jimbo,

• Edited by a Moderator • I took an interest in it partly because it is supposed to be authored by someone who cheated the whole death scenario. Prior to that, I had found the concept of death to be unacceptable and so I was looking for ideas and was curious how he did it. Here is a link from the Manual for Teachers regarding death from the Course:

• Edited by a Moderator •

As you can see, his attitude is uncompromising on this issue:

Teacher of God, your one assignment could be stated thus: Accept no compromise in which death plays a part. Do not believe in cruelty, nor let attack conceal the truth from you. What seems to die has but been misperceived and carried to illusion. Now it becomes your task to let the illusion be carried to the truth. Be steadfast but in this; be not deceived by the "reality" of any changing form. Truth neither moves nor wavers nor sinks down to death and dissolution. And what is the end of death? Nothing but this; the realization that the Son of God is guiltless now and forever. Nothing but this. But do not let yourself forget it is not less than this.

Regards,
Urban Monk

Moderated By: Mountain Man

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[UrbanMonk]

I would really like to know how you folks think you are going to get to live forever.

Do you really think that you are something other than a flesh and bone primate? Do you really think you are something else? Do you think you can somehow overcome cell death, brain death, and experience anything at all when all your sensory organs are gone and the brain that interprets the signals from your nonexistent sensory organs has been decayed away? What will "you" (or I) really be at that point?

Understand what you are. You are a physical being, you will age, and you will inevitably die.
Cheers,

Jimbo

Jimbo,
One of the most common mantras throughout A Course In Miracles is "I am not a body". In the Workbook, many days are devoted to getting this through one's head. The Course trains the student to learn s/he is a mind. The body is 100% a mental manifestation if anything at all. Everything it seems to feel or do is assigned to it by mind at another level. The key is to overlook the pseudo-mind that is controlling the body to what has the ability to change it's purpose...the mind of Christ. The purpose of the pseudo-mind is death. The purpose of the mind of Christ is life. One must change one's mind at this level in order to pull the kind of stunt Jesus pulled.

Regards,
Urban Monk