What sort of Demon am I dealing with?

[Pilgrim]

spot on Sparko.

[Macgawd]

cute metaphor but there is no scriptural backing for demons possessing Christians.

If we are indwelt by God, then demons cannot possess what belongs to God.

Is this supported by Scripture? Where in Scripture does it say that a Christian cannot be possessed by a demon?

=M=

[John Goddard]

He prayed three times for "it" to be removed and it never was. That means he was never relieved and was demon-possessed.

John, the passage is using figures of speech. Most scholars think Paul is referring to his ailing eyesight. a "thorn in the flesh" seems to refer to some physical ailment.

and besides, demon "attacks" are not the same thing as demon possession. Satan can attack us from outside, but he cannot enter us or possess us. and neither can demons.

Paul says, "there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure."

That doesn't imply a physical ailment, he wasn't trying to be a sports hero or something. It implies a spiritual ailment to keep his ego down so he didn't get holier than thou.

If it was a messenger of Satan what sort of message do you think it had?

And why would he only pray three times if it never left? That doesn't make sense. I don't see that it never left. I see that it bothered him when he got too spiritually big for his britches, and left when he got humble again.

[Adrift]

That's ludicrous. Nowhere does it say that is a demon. And besides, God refused to remove the thorn. So if it was a demon, then God refused to cast it out. That would mean that half of our bible was written by a demon possessed man. Are you sure you want to argue that?

Actually, headheart recently pointed out a very interesting discussion with Kevin Lewis, professor of theology at Biola university, on demonology at apologetics.com, and Dr. Lewis explained how that verse is referring to a "messenger=angel". This isn't to say that Paul was possessed (Kevin Lewis doesn't like to use that word anyways, apparently), but that Paul was being targeted by some sort of demonic activity, much in the same way that Michael the archangel was "withstood" for 21 days by the prince of Persia in Daniel 10. Its a very good broadcast (except the second half when Kevin Lewis leaves and the dj's take over the apologetics).
http://www.apologetics.com/index.php...eles&Itemid=74

Edit/disclaimer: By the way I don't believe that 4 thousand year old mummies contain demons. Whatever this person is experiencing, it wasn't because of the mummy.

[Sparko]

Is this supported by Scripture? Where in Scripture does it say that a Christian cannot be possessed by a demon?

=M=

show me one Christian that is possessed by a demon in the bible.

romans 8:9
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

eph 1:13
3And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

How can a demon reside in the temple of God? How can God share you with a demon? How weak IS your God that he has to move over to let a demon have some room?

use your brain.

[John Goddard]

Actually, headheart recently pointed out a very interesting discussion with Kevin Lewis, professor of theology at Biola university, on demonology at apologetics.com, and Dr. Lewis explained how that verse is referring to a "messenger=angel". This isn't to say that Paul was possessed (Kevin Lewis doesn't like to use that word anyways, apparently), but that Paul was being targeted by some sort of demonic activity, much in the same way that Michael the archangel was "withstood" for 21 days by the prince of Persia in Daniel 10. Its a very good broadcast (except the second half when Kevin Lewis leaves and the dj's take over the apologetics).
http://www.apologetics.com/index.php...eles&Itemid=74

As a metaphor, thorns refers to worldly things, starting with Adam's curse. The thorny crown Jesus was made to wear was a symbol of man's carnal understanding of kingdoms, and lack of understanding of the kingdom of Heaven. This is all clarified in Matthew 13:22.

Therefore, Paul's thorn would most likely be his attraction to worldly power within the Church, and God appropriately knocked him down back into place.

Implying some sort of exterior attack paints a picture of ghosts swirling around him attacking him. When really it was all an inside job spiritually.

We might think the term "possession" is distasteful but it doesn't really matter as long as we understand that his problem was spiritual.

It's all the same thing, not a bunch of ghosts attacking the outside of your body.

[John Goddard]

How weak IS your God that he has to move over to let a demon have some room?

That's about the same as saying Christians must always be sinless else we have a weak God making room for sin, and thus aren't really Christians. Not realistic.

[Adrift]

As a metaphor, thorns refers to worldly things, starting with Adam's curse. The thorny crown Jesus was made to wear was a symbol of man's carnal understanding of kingdoms, and lack of understanding of the kingdom of Heaven. This is all clarified in Matthew 13:22.

Therefore, Paul's thorn would most likely be his attraction to worldly power within the Church, and God appropriately knocked him down back into place.

Implying some sort of exterior attack paints a picture of ghosts swirling around him attacking him. When really it was all an inside job spiritually.

We might think the term "possession" is distasteful but it doesn't really matter as long as we understand that his problem was spiritual.

It's all the same thing, not a bunch of ghosts attacking the outside of your body.

Well, Kevin explains it this way... essentially he leaves open what the thorn was. It could have been a physical ailment (he doesn't seem to lean that way, but is not totally adverse to it), or it could have been the sufferings he endured which he refers to in the previous chapter. At any rate, Kevin does believe that the nature of the buffeting was certainly demonic in nature. Kevin's take on possession is quite interesting too, he doesn't believe Paul was possessed... as in, his will was taken over. He believes that demons more or less... demonize... You should listen to the broadcast, he explains it far better than i could. He's actually sort of adverse to using the word demonize too.

[Manwë Súlimo]

There's a little bit.

2 Corinthians 12:7-8 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

No, that was yo lunch...


Seriously, it could also be people that followed in Paul's footsteps and spread hearsay to the churches he helped build, undoing all his good work. It could be anything, really.

[John Goddard]

Well, Kevin explains it this way... essentially he leaves open what the thorn was. It could have been a physical ailment (he doesn't seem to lean that way, but is not totally adverse to it), or it could have been the sufferings he endured which he refers to in the previous chapter. At any rate, Kevin does believe that the nature of the buffeting was certainly demonic in nature. Kevin's take on possession is quite interesting too, he doesn't believe Paul was possessed... as in, his will was taken over. He believes that demons more or less... demonize... You should listen to the broadcast, he explains it far better than i could. He's actually sort of adverse to using the word demonize too.

Ok thanks I'll check it out. This thing I explained just makes most sense to me so far but I'm open to other ideas, it's not a real big issue for me like Trinity or something is.

[Adrift]

Ok thanks I'll check it out. This thing I explained just makes most sense to me so far but I'm open to other ideas, it's not a real big issue for me like Trinity or something is.

Yeah, understood. He actually changed my way of thinking of the subject a bit, to be honest (though one of the stories he relays seems... unlikely to me). Pretty interesting stuff.

[Sparko]

That's about the same as saying Christians must always be sinless else we have a weak God making room for sin, and thus aren't really Christians. Not realistic.

there is a big difference between God living in us and us continuing to sin, and some other spiritual being possessing us and residing in us alongside God.

and why can they be cast out by US commanding them to come out, if God won't even cast them out from the very body he is residing in? Are we more powerful than God? Seems a bit farfetched that God would just let demons live in us along side himself until we decide to cast them out. Sounds kinda weak.

of what purpose is the Holy Spirit living in us for if not to protect us from such things and to lead us and guide us? If some demon is in us leading and guiding us, then the Spirit is not doing his job.

[John Goddard]

there is a big difference between God living in us and us continuing to sin, and some other spiritual being possessing us and residing in us alongside God.

What is the difference, evil is evil. How come you think God is still with you when you are actively sinning?

King Saul had God's Spirit, then it left and an evil spirit bothered him. Then Saul got God's Spirit again and prophesied. 1 Samuel 19.

Paul was just a human too, not a god. What would be the problem with him getting God's Spirit, then being buffeted by an evil spirit, then getting God's Spirit when he became humble again?

and why can they be cast out by US commanding them to come out, if God won't even cast them out from the very body he is residing in? Are we more powerful than God? Seems a bit farfetched that God would just let demons live in us along side himself until we decide to cast them out. Sounds kinda weak.

of what purpose is the Holy Spirit living in us for if not to protect us from such things and to lead us and guide us? If some demon is in us leading and guiding us, then the Spirit is not doing his job.

Well the Spirit doesn't lead you to sin and you still sin sometimes, right? But I take it that it doesn't stay gone forever for you either, when you humble yourself and repent.

There's not like a huge difference between casting out demons and casting out sinful behavior, since Paul is already indicating that his buffeting was caused by the real or potential threat of sinful pride (exalted above measure) as the verse says.

You ever see people on here who start talking delusional thinking they may be prophets or Messiah or something? They seem like they may have a bad spirit right? Well, similar thing, God can allow people to get wacky when they stop glorifying God's Word and start glorifying themselves as something special just because they are preaching it. Then ideally, they get buffeted and knocked down and humbled and back down to earth again.

I've seen it a lot in Christianity over the years, even sometimes on Tweb. You probably have one or two people in mind yourself.

[Sparko]

What is the difference, evil is evil. How come you think God is still with you when you are actively sinning?

because he is in me trying to get me to stop. be kinda hard to cast ME out of my body wouldn't it?

King Saul had God's Spirit, then it left and an evil spirit bothered him. Then Saul got God's Spirit again and prophesied. 1 Samuel 19.

There is no indication that anyone was indwelt by the Holy Spirit until after the crucifixion (pentacost). Jesus said that when he left he would send another counselor to lead and guide us. The indwelling of the Spirit in us is different from the "filling of the spirit" that can come and go. We are always indwelt.

Paul was just a human too, not a god. What would be the problem with him getting God's Spirit, then being buffeted by an evil spirit, then getting God's Spirit when he became humble again?

because the Holy Spirit never leaves us completely.

Well the Spirit doesn't lead you to sin and you still sin sometimes, right? But I take it that it doesn't stay gone forever for you either, when you humble yourself and repent.

There's not like a huge difference between casting out demons and casting out sinful behavior, since Paul is already indicating that his buffeting was caused by the real or potential threat of sinful pride (exalted above measure) as the verse says.

now you are equivocating and moving goal posts in order to squeeze your definition in.

You ever see people on here who start talking delusional thinking they may be prophets or Messiah or something? They seem like they may have a bad spirit right? Well, similar thing, God can allow people to get wacky when they stop glorifying God's Word and start glorifying themselves as something special just because they are preaching it. Then ideally, they get buffeted and knocked down and humbled and back down to earth again.

I've seen it a lot in Christianity over the years, even sometimes on Tweb. You probably have one or two people in mind yourself.

being nuts does not mean they have a demon. It means they have a mental problem.

[John Goddard]

because he is in me trying to get me to stop. be kinda hard to cast ME out of my body wouldn't it?

We arrived to this point in the discussion when you said, "How weak IS your God that he has to move over to let a demon have some room?" If you are sinning and God is still in you, then God has moved over to let sin have some room. So you aren't really explaining the difference yet.

You would need to pray to God to cast out either, at that point. Paul had to ask God, he didn't have the power himself to stop the buffeting either.

There is no indication that anyone was indwelt by the Holy Spirit until after the crucifixion (pentacost). Jesus said that when he left he would send another counselor to lead and guide us. The indwelling of the Spirit in us is different from the "filling of the spirit" that can come and go. We are always indwelt. because the Holy Spirit never leaves us completely.

Where does the NT say the Holy Spirit is always with you while you are actively sinning?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If you are actively sinning and not keeping the commandments, then I don't see promise that the Holy Spirit moves over to let sin have some room, never leaving.

I see that if you repent and return back to keeping the commandments, then you get the Holy Spirit again.

now you are equivocating and moving goal posts in order to squeeze your definition in.

I've been consistent all along, you just never explained why God will move over to make room for sin, but not a demon.

being nuts does not mean they have a demon. It means they have a mental problem.

King Saul got an evil spirit he went nutty against David, who at that point had God's Spirit instead and comforted Saul. I see nothing indicating that the good and evil spirits of the OT are any different than those in the NT, or any different than those of today.