...whoa...

[faithymom]

So I'm going through this book with the JWs called "What Does the Bible Really Teach" and I came across something that I had never heard before in any of the books I've read on refuting them.
The book says this relating to Judgment Day:

According to the apostle John's vision, "scrolls were opened," and "the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds." Are these scrolls the record of people's past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. [because] "He who has died has been acquitted from his sin" (Rom 6:7) Those resurrected come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent God's further requirements. To live forever, both Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God's commandments, including whatever new requirements Jehovah might reveal during the thousand years.

(emphasis is mine)
Now I didn't really need anything more to show how messed up their beliefs are, but can anyone (paging David Reed!) tell me if this is a new teaching? I was pretty astounded when I read this.
They are really saying that what we do here and now makes no difference in regard to our eternal destiny?!
This book is rather eye-opening...
I also read in it that only those who are part of the 144,000 are supposed to participate in communion and that only they are in the 'new covenant'. Weirder and weirder...

If man is 'acquitted from his sin' at death, and we all enter Judgment Day with a clean slate, what did Jesus die for?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[MooseOnTheLoose]

Right, I'm off on a bar crawl, then I'm going to the casino, then it'll be a house of ill-repute after that. Yeeehaaa!!!

[JB]

So I'm going through this book with the JWs called "What Does the Bible Really Teach" and I came across something that I had never heard before in any of the books I've read on refuting them.
The book says this relating to Judgment Day:
(emphasis is mine)
Now I didn't really need anything more to show how messed up their beliefs are, but can anyone (paging David Reed!) tell me if this is a new teaching? I was pretty astounded when I read this.
They are really saying that what we do here and now makes no difference in regard to our eternal destiny?!
This book is rather eye-opening...
I also read in it that only those who are part of the 144,000 are supposed to participate in communion and that only they are in the 'new covenant'. Weirder and weirder...

If man is 'acquitted from his sin' at death, and we all enter Judgment Day with a clean slate, what did Jesus die for?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

That's from pp. 214-215, right?

[faithymom]

Yes, it is.

[Bill the Cat]

The whole book is garbage like that.

[apostoli]

If man is 'acquitted from his sin' at death, and we all enter Judgment Day with a clean slate, what did Jesus die for?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I don't have a copy of "What Does the Bible Really Teach", and no inclination to acquire it! However, unless the WT&TS has changed its teaching on the resurrection radically in the last 20years I suspect you all misunderstand what they are saying.

Their teaching addressed/addresses several theological questions (remember this site is suppose to be about theology not persecution of minority opinion with rhetoric)...

In Insight on the Scriptures (1988, pages 783-793) they address many theological questions in regard to the resurrections. Five of which are...

1. The penalty of sin is death.
2. Jesus died for all mankinds sins and yet the common end condition of mankind remains to be death. Even for those that believe and follow him unreservedly.
3. Jesus refers to the little flock & the other sheep. Who are the other sheep?
4. Those raised in the first resurrection are raised to judge. But A.John limits such to 144,000.
5. Those raised in the second resurrection are judged.

The RCC once resolved these issues with the teaching on the divines, heaven, purgatory, limbo & hell. Albeit, the idea of limbo has recently been rejected as unbiblical. Imu, the WT&TS opinion basically addresses the same concepts. Albeit, they come to different conclusions.


Imo, if you wish to combat the WT&TS proponents, address their theology with biblical sequestration.

Imo, a starting point is identifying the 144,000.


________________

* biblical sequestration: the act of removing, separating or seizing a point of view from the possession of its owner under process of examining biblical teaching for the benefit of those interested in a correct view of biblical teaching.

Peace

[MooseOnTheLoose]

I thought Jesus died to atone for Original Sin and make salvation possible for all humanity, but salvation would still depend on your obeying God's word and following His will.

[faithymom]

Jesus died for the sins of the world. We must accept/believe in him to reap the benefits of that atonement, but salvation is from God and not dependent on our work.
Obedience should follow from that, but is not how we are saved.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I don't have a copy of "What Does the Bible Really Teach",

If you ever really want one, we've got 6 of them over here at last count. Hopefully all also printed from new trees that deserved to die.

[apostoli]

If you ever really want one, we've got 6 of them over here at last count. Hopefully all also printed from new trees that deserved to die.

May I impose on your time and get you to scan pages 214-215 (or whatever is relevant) and email them to me.

Thankyou in advance.

ps. No hurry. When you can...

pss. You'd think that the society would save trees where they can and deliver their publications online (?)

[faithymom]

Here is the online version:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_00.htm
It's under in the "Judgment Day" part of the Appendix.

Click on the 'chapters' area on the left side of the screen if you want to read the whole thing.

[MooseOnTheLoose]

but salvation is from God and not dependent on our work.

Isn't that what you basically accused the JWs of saying?

[ApologiaPhoenix]

May I impose on your time and get you to scan pages 214-215 (or whatever is relevant) and email them to me.

Thankyou in advance.

ps. No hurry. When you can...

pss. You'd think that the society would save trees where they can and deliver their publications online (?)

hmmm. I can see if I can do that. I don't have a scanner however....

[apostoli]

Here is the online version:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_00.htm
It's under in the "Judgment Day" part of the Appendix.

Thanks for that. Guess I was looking in the wrong place ie: www.watchtower.org/e/publications/index, which lists the book but doesn't provide a link but does invite you to have a bible study.

WT&TS

According to the apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent God’s further requirements. To live forever, both Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God’s commandments, including whatever new requirements Jehovah might reveal during the thousand years. Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day.

© source where applicable

They are really saying that what we do here and now makes no difference in regard to our eternal destiny?

Not really. They do teach that some don't get a resurrection. See below...

I did a quick word study on Romans 6:7 (B-Greek and a couple of other sources). Vincent word studies seems to offer a consensus = "Is freed (dedikaiwtai). Lit., as Rev., is justified; i.e., acquitted, absolved; just as the dead person sins no more, being released from sin as from a legal claim. 'As a man that is dead is acquitted and released from bondage among men, so a man that has died to sin is acquitted from the guilt of sin and released from its bondage' (Alford)."

Weymouth New Testament renders "for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin."

For anyone who is interested, this link provides the major commentaries on this verse
http://biblecommenter.com/romans/6-7.htm

So, is the WT&TS application of Romans 6:7 to the "scrolls" of Revelation correct? I say no! Their idea is at odds with their other teaching that the extremely wicked do not get a resurrection (which is at odds with Jesus' profession at John 5:27-29, where all in the grave will be resurrected either to life or damnation). Imo, Romans 6:7 used in the way the WT&TS is using it to support their argument, would have to apply to everyone that has ever died, thus even the extremely wicked would need to be resurrected (Daniel 12:2-3 would indicate that not everyone rises/awakes, but this is corrected by Jesus).

Thus, imo, their assumption "The scrolls must therefore represent God’s further requirements" post tribulation is an erroneous idea unsupportable from scripture. The "scrolls" are attested to in the OT as a record of ones life. See Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary.
http://biblecommenter.com/revelation/20-12.htm

I can't see the logic in the above WT&TS idea (except as a premise for the great preaching work). When Rev 20:12-15 is read with Rom 6:5-8, John 5:27-29 & James 2:24, Dan 7:10, Ps 56:8, Mal 3:16, Rom 2:12 etc it seems obvious that the scrolls contain the past deeds of those being judged - in fact Rev 20:12 & 13 says so "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works." NIV, ESV, RSV "what they had done". Which is what Jesus said would happen at Matthew 16:27.

Peace

[apostoli]

hmmm. I can see if I can do that. I don't have a scanner however....

Thankyou ApologiaPhoenix. However, faithymom has generously given me a link to an online edition, so I'll withdraw my request.

I won't forget your kindness...