Perception is Reality - and Islam has a PERCEPTION problem

[Cow Poke]

Barnasha and I go "round and round" on this issue.
Here's a fact.
Perception is a powerful thing.

If I truly love my wife, but never tell her that, and i don't do things that demonstrate that I love her, then her PERCEPTION is not going to be that I love her. Isn't that true?
So, no matter HOW MUCH I love her, our marriage isn't going to go so well. And i can whine and cry and complain that she doesn't understand me, BUT, if I do nothing to CHANGE THE PERCEPTION, I'm in trouble! (for the record, I stay in trouble )

So I bring up facts about terrorism done in the name of Islam, and Barnasha explains it away by telling me it's not officially sponsored, or a Cleric who has an army is political not religious, even though he preaches like a Muslim Cleric, and aspires to be a big religious leader, and all that. (Yeah, I'm talking about Sadr)

And you can do all you want to explain the finer points of religious vs. political vs. Islam vs. Muslim vs. WHATEVER, but the fact remains, that there is a PERCEPTION problem, and Muslims are not UNITED in their renunciation of terrorism. Period.

So, Barnahsa got me to thinking. He tried to equate Christianity with this type of conduct, because Christians have done "bad things" in God's name. I allowed that. Admitted that. History shows that. I asked for some CONTEMPORARY evidence of Christians doing "bad things" in God's name without a repudiation by mainstream Christianity. He introduced Timothy McVeigh as an example of a Christian Terrorist. Small problem though, McVeigh didn't claim to be a Christian! Nor did he act in "God's name". And if he DID, the Christian community would soundly renounce him.

So... my premise is ... Islam has a PERCEPTION problem.
And, I'll throw this in... When was the last time you saw an Islamic Hospital Ship pulling into the harbor of a location where there has been a devastating sunami or earthquake or typhoon. While, all across the US, mosques are collecting money for "relief", why is Somalia in such horrible condition? Why do CHRISTIANS defend Muslims in Europe, and aid in their misery, and send medical supplies and resources?

What is ISLAM doing about the fact that they have a very serious PERCEPTION problem?

[shunyadragon]

Barnasha and I go "round and round" on this issue.
Here's a fact.
Perception is a powerful thing.

If I truly love my wife, but never tell her that, and i don't do things that demonstrate that I love her, then her PERCEPTION is not going to be that I love her. Isn't that true?
So, no matter HOW MUCH I love her, our marriage isn't going to go so well. And i can whine and cry and complain that she doesn't understand me, BUT, if I do nothing to CHANGE THE PERCEPTION, I'm in trouble! (for the record, I stay in trouble )

So I bring up facts about terrorism done in the name of Islam, and Barnasha explains it away by telling me it's not officially sponsored, or a Cleric who has an army is political not religious, even though he preaches like a Muslim Cleric, and aspires to be a big religious leader, and all that. (Yeah, I'm talking about Sadr)

And you can do all you want to explain the finer points of religious vs. political vs. Islam vs. Muslim vs. WHATEVER, but the fact remains, that there is a PERCEPTION problem, and Muslims are not UNITED in their renunciation of terrorism. Period.

So, Barnahsa got me to thinking. He tried to equate Christianity with this type of conduct, because Christians have done "bad things" in God's name. I allowed that. Admitted that. History shows that. I asked for some CONTEMPORARY evidence of Christians doing "bad things" in God's name without a repudiation by mainstream Christianity. He introduced Timothy McVeigh as an example of a Christian Terrorist. Small problem though, McVeigh didn't claim to be a Christian! Nor did he act in "God's name". And if he DID, the Christian community would soundly renounce him.

So... my premise is ... Islam has a PERCEPTION problem.
And, I'll throw this in... When was the last time you saw an Islamic Hospital Ship pulling into the harbor of a location where there has been a devastating sunami or earthquake or typhoon. While, all across the US, mosques are collecting money for "relief", why is Somalia in such horrible condition? Why do CHRISTIANS defend Muslims in Europe, and aid in their misery, and send medical supplies and resources?

What is ISLAM doing about the fact that they have a very serious PERCEPTION problem?

I share the belief the Christianity and Judaism share this very serious PERCEPTION problem.

As for contemporary problems, Africa is rife with terror ism and violence from Christian, Islamic and tribal conflicts, which have historical roots in Colonialism. Ireland is a classic example of a bloody conflict with terrorists involved. The recent history of Yugoslavia is a classic example of horrific terrorism, ethnic cleansing between Roman Christian, Orthodox Christians and Muslim factions.

Why do you limit it to contemporary terrorism? Historically in both eastern and western Europe terrorism, ethnic cleansing has been the rule against Jews in history.

In the twentieth century up until the 1070s the churches were involved with forced taking of children from Native American homes in Canada and the US and and placed in Christian schools where they were restricted from speaking their language and expressing their culture.

[Cow Poke]

Why do you limit it to contemporary terrorism?

Because that's my current interest. You're more than welcome to start a thread about historical terrorism. Or making doilies out of couch covers.

[barnasha]

ever consider the possibility that it is YOU who has the perception problem? if others are misinformed or buffeting you with misinformation, it can also make you misinformed, and that is a perception problem, albeit not totally your fault.

I *have* tried to correct your misperceptions about Islam, so you can't say I haven't done anything.

I did not at all "equate Christianity" with that kind of conduct, I took your logic and applied it to a different target to show you how that logic does

NOT

make sense....

[Cow Poke]

ever consider the possibility that it is YOU who has the perception problem? if others are misinformed or buffeting you with misinformation, it can also make you misinformed, and that is a perception problem, albeit not totally your fault.

Barny, Barny, Barny... it IS me... and millions of other Americans WITH me... who have this odd perception that it was Islamic Terrorism that destroyed the World Trade Towers, and (do we have to go into that really long list of terrorist acts perpetrated by Muslims AGAIN????)

I *have* tried to correct your misperceptions about Islam, so you can't say I haven't done anything.

I'm not saying you haven't done anything, Barny, I'm saying you have FAILED miserably!

I did not at all "equate Christianity" with that kind of conduct, I took your logic and applied it to a different target to show you how that logic does NOT make sense....

You used Tim McVeigh as an example of a Christian Terrorist. BAD BAD BAD example!
He wasn't even a Christian!
Bad logic - no donut!

[Augustine2004]

It ought to be a scandal! Maybe 65% of self-professing Christians support American imperial wars in the MidEast.

[barnasha]

You used Tim McVeigh as an example of a Christian Terrorist. BAD BAD BAD example!
He wasn't even a Christian!
Bad logic - no donut!

you still don't get it? my examples were purposefully wrong. applications of your logic to show how your logic was broken.

[Cow Poke]

It ought to be a scandal! Maybe 65% of self-professing Christians support American imperial wars in the MidEast.

Define "American Imperial wars", please.
I think I may not be part of the 65%, but let's see.

And why ought it to be a scandal?

[Cow Poke]

you still don't get it? my examples were purposefully wrong. applications of your logic to show how your logic was broken.

No, I don't buy it. I think you screwed up and are not man enough to admit it. My logic was working fine.
You pulled that out like a trump card - like Christianity has it's own problems - I think you just picked a bad example, and you're not going to convince me otherwise.

Look Barney...
My concern was the perception that these terrorists represented Islam - the REASON the perception exists is because they happen to be Muslim!
In order for there to be a parallel... McVeigh would have had to be perceived as a "Christian" doing "God's work" - but he never even claimed to be a Christian! And certainly was not claiming to be doing "God's work".
There IS NO PARALLEL!

I'll go back and look at the thread this afternoon, and if I'm wrong, I'll admit it. But I don't think you would... you'll just kabuki again.

[Cow Poke]

you still don't get it? my examples were purposefully wrong. applications of your logic to show how your logic was broken.

OK, I checked, and you're wrong.

HERE is exactly what you said in Post #82 of the "Mixed Weights and Measures" thread...
And THIS is why you have ZERO CREDIBILITY!

just because the differences are subtle and people choose to differentiate between them and make clear what they are talking about does not make them less plain.

in fact, it is more plain to be precise when using correct terminology to make sure everyone is on the same page.

Is Timothy McVeigh a Christian terrorist? What does that say about Christianity? Do people who attack abortion doctors using violence in the name of Christ represent Christianity? Or can i say your response that they "happen to be Christian" is silly?

YOUR WORDS!!!!

McVeigh DID NOT "happen to be a Christian", Barny!
The Terrorists DID "happen to be Muslim".
THAT is the parallel you were trying to draw, and you BLEW IT!

This was shortly before you began to whine that I attacked your character.

[Augustine2004]

Define "American Imperial wars", please.

I guess you think we are not an empire.

And why ought it to be a scandal?

The wars are not Christian, yet enjoy widespread 'Christian' support. We are really terrorists in the MidEast, yet call the freedom fighters there 'terrorists.'

[Cow Poke]

I guess you think we are not an empire.

because i asked for a definition and said please?

The wars are not Christian, yet enjoy widespread 'Christian' support. We are really terrorists in the MidEast, yet call the freedom fighters there 'terrorists.'

Right.

[Augustine2004]

Country Preacher may have a bigger perception problem than most Muslims. He does not see that our imperial treatment of foreigners causes blowback, for example, 9/11. Call it terrorism, but see it as people striking back for America's impositions of its imperial will.

[Cow Poke]

Country Preacher may have a bigger perception problem than most Muslims. He does not see that our imperial treatment of foreigners causes blowback, for example, 9/11. Call it terrorism, but see it as people striking back for America's impositions of its imperial will.

Actually, you don't know that. You are ASSuming that. I simply chose not to engage because you don't seem to have an interest in civil discourse. I really don't care what you think. I DID. But I don't. hence the

AND... I was actually interested in hearing your point of view, but your arrogance caused a sudden loss of interest.

[shunyadragon]

Because that's my current interest. You're more than welcome to start a thread about historical terrorism. Or making doilies out of couch covers.

I brpught up current terrorism, and you did not respond. Rather selective aren't you.

Regardless of your personal interest, your PERCEPTION appears distorted and selective concerning the behavior of Christianity in history.

Let's deal with your straw man dollies first.