Perception is Reality - and Islam has a PERCEPTION problem

[Cow Poke]

I brpught up current terrorism, and you didinot respond. Rather selective aren't you.

Regardless of your personal interest, your PERCEPTION appears distorted and selective concerning the behavior of Christianity in history.

No, I already stipulated the behavior of Christianity in history. In my OP i said...

So, Barnahsa got me to thinking. He tried to equate Christianity with this type of conduct, because Christians have done "bad things" in God's name. I allowed that. Admitted that. History shows that.

Did you skip that part? And you are correct that i didinot (sic) respond to what you brpught (sic) up. I ignored you. Thanks for noticing.

[shunyadragon]

Barny, Barny, Barny... it IS me... and millions of other Americans WITH me. . .

Sounds just like the man standing in the back of the wagon peddling bottles of majic stuff.

[Cow Poke]

Sounds just like the man standing in the back of the wagon peddling bottles of majic stuff.

yeah, and you sound like a guy who's interested in peace and friendship. maybe you should buy some more jade-silk.

[barnasha]

OK, I checked, and you're wrong.

HERE is exactly what you said in Post #82 of the "Mixed Weights and Measures" thread...
And THIS is why you have ZERO CREDIBILITY!


YOUR WORDS!!!!

McVeigh DID NOT "happen to be a Christian", Barny!
The Terrorists DID "happen to be Muslim".
THAT is the parallel you were trying to draw, and you BLEW IT!

This was shortly before you began to whine that I attacked your character.

seems to me like you're distracting from the fact that your logic was busted. if the analogy I chose to use it was poor, that is moot.

attacking me for credibility only reinfornces that idea, because you're wading into the "Ad hominem" approach of carrying on an argument

Barny, Barny, Barny... it IS me... and millions of other Americans WITH me. . .

if millions of americans did not have a perception problem, maybe USA wouldn't be in such a huge mess right now.

[Cow Poke]

if millions of americans did not have a perception problem, maybe USA wouldn't be in such a huge mess right now.

Wow - you finally agreed there's a perception problem. I commend you!

[bartdanr]

I agree that there are many "perception" problems in life. IMO, there is a HUGE gap in perceptions between the two sides in the ongoing conflicts between the Islamic world and the west (more specifically, the US).

To me, one of the key differences in perception is the perception the west has (largely) that 9/11 and other acts of terrorism happened because certain people "hate freedom" and hate us "for who we are"--when the perception of others (including Bin Laden, according to his own words) has little to do with our love of freedom and everything to do with our policies in the Middle East and the rest of the Islamic world.

I think observers like Michael Schruer see it far more clearly than most.

[barnasha]

If "you" have a "perception problem", since "you" are the one with the perception, it is "your" "problem"... not the thing you're perceiving.

I remember agreeing that Islam as a sociocultural phenomenon (which is not the more precise application of the term) has a perception or "PR" problem weeks ago on this forum, in a discussion with the above posters.

Islam itself, the divine principle of alignment with divine principles, could never have a 'perception' problem strictly speaking, just like 'love' or 'beauty' cannot themselves, as abstract concepts, have 'perception problems'.

The west and the islamic world are sociocultural phenomena/institutions which often do not see eye-to-eye.

[Cow Poke]

I agree that there are many "perception" problems in life. IMO, there is a HUGE gap in perceptions between the two sides in the ongoing conflicts between the Islamic world and the west (more specifically, the US).

To me, one of the key differences in perception is the perception the west has (largely) that 9/11 and other acts of terrorism happened because certain people "hate freedom" and hate us "for who we are"--when the perception of others (including Bin Laden, according to his own words) has little to do with our love of freedom and everything to do with our policies in the Middle East and the rest of the Islamic world.

I think observers like Michael Schruer see it far more clearly than most.

AH, the voice of reason... (sincere comment - not intended to be facetious)

Let's say I agree with that. (I don't want to but I don't have a legitimate argument against it)
What has "Islam" done to change that "wrongful perception" of the west, particularly the US?
OR... perhaps more to the point .. . do they care?

[Cow Poke]

If "you" have a "perception problem", since "you" are the one with the perception, it is "your" "problem"... not the thing you're perceiving.

You really don't understand "perception is reality", do you?

If it were "me alone" with this perception, then who really cares! I believe it's a pretty widespread perception in the US, and that's where I live.
There is a BASIS for that perception. And "the muslim world", in my opinion, does not seem to be doing anything to change that perception. HOWEVER - I may have overlooked a key component - maybe they really don't CARE!

I remember agreeing that Islam as a sociocultural phenomenon (which is not the more precise application of the term) has a perception or "PR" problem weeks ago on this forum, in a discussion with the above posters.

kabuki

Islam itself, the divine principle of alignment with divine principles, could never have a 'perception' problem strictly speaking, just like 'love' or 'beauty' cannot themselves, as abstract concepts, have 'perception problems'.

So where do i see this "divine principle" exhibited?

The west and the islamic world are sociocultural phenomena/institutions which often do not see eye-to-eye.

kabuki

How bout just speaking plain without all the crap, Barny?
Here are some simple plain straight-forward questions...
Does Islam want to govern the world?
Is Islam a religion of peace?

Let's try those two simple questions first.

[bartdanr]

AH, the voice of reason... (sincere comment - not intended to be facetious)

Let's say I agree with that. (I don't want to but I don't have a legitimate argument against it)
What has "Islam" done to change that "wrongful perception" of the west, particularly the US?
OR... perhaps more to the point .. . do they care?

'Lo, Preacher,

Thanks for the compilment.

I know that some groups have come out in condemnation of terrorism. Some have been hypocritical, condemning the 9/11 attacks against the US, while supporting the attacks on Israel. Bin Laden is absolutely correct that the corrupt Mullah's that are supported by the corrupt regimes (like Saudi Arabia), who can't afford to piss off the US too much are completely inconsistent in this regard.

However, even groups that DO support terrorism aren't being listened to. Bin Laden has been painfully clear on why he attacks the US, long before 9/11 when he declared war on us. But popular opinion in the US is sadly formed by forces other than silly things like facts.

I think Bin Laden cares only in so far as it could influence our actions. He doesn't give a flip what we think of him.

[barnasha]

That's not how it works. If it were "me" alone with this perception, then who really cares! I believe it's a pretty widespread perception in the US, and that's where I live.
There is a BASIS for that perception. And "the muslim world", in my opinion, does not seem to be doing anything to change that perception. HOWEVER - I may have overlooked a key component - maybe they really don't CARE!

Lots of americans thought the housing market/stock market was fine too, look where that got them.

So where do i see this "divine principle" exhibited?

Anywhere someone does something out of love rather than hate, greed, fear, etc.

kabuki

How bout just speaking plain without all the crap, Barny?
Here are some simple plain straight-forward questions...
Does Islam want to govern the world?
Is Islam a religion of peace?

Let's try those two simple questions first.

"Does Islam want to govern the world?"

Islam as a theology and philosophy explicitly separates itself from worldly life. It is focused on an individual's self and afterlife.

there is a very common expression in Islamic theology, "deen and dunya". deen means (spiritual, personal) way of life, "dunya" means worldly matters (politics, world faiths, etc). The usage of this expression is used to put focus on the fact that Islam is concerned with things that are "not of this world". You will see this concept from Jesus and Paul and in the hebrew bible as well.

When you say "Islam", are you asking about a government which fashions itself after the Islamic empire and how that nation-state should behave, regarding expansion?

Because what Islam 'governs' is the actions of an individual; nations cannot obey God, only people can.

"Is Islam a religion of peace?"

I can't do justice to the amount written on this subject elsewhere, but Islam itself has a linguistic relationship to the term peace, if you want to translate the word itself into English, you could describe it with terms like 'peace, safety, security, blamelessness'.

but Islam itself, to any arabic speaker, would hae a strong connotation of 'peace', as it is another morphing of the root word 'salama' from which we get salam (hebrew: shalom), which means peace and is used as a traditional greeting.

Doctrinally speaking Islam builds on the teachings of the biblical prophets (hebrews), incorporating their teachings and expounding upon them. In the Islamic scriptures, frequent reference is made to Moses, Jesus, and to the Christian and Hebrew scriptures, and how these things are God-sent. Islam says the teachings of the Hebrew patriarchs (including Jesus) are from God.

So is the religion of Jesus and Moses "of peace"?

After having seen this question asked for so long, I really wonder about its motivation or its natural conclusion; what is a "religion of peace"? Is Islam *not* a religion of peace?

I know that some groups have come out in condemnation of terrorism. Some have been hypocritical, condemning the 9/11 attacks against the US, while supporting the attacks on Israel. Bin Laden is absolutely correct that the corrupt Mullah's that are supported by the corrupt regimes (like Saudi Arabia), who can't afford to piss off the US too much are completely inconsistent in this regard.

However, even groups that DO support terrorism aren't being listened to. Bin Laden has been painfully clear on why he attacks the US, long before 9/11 when he declared war on us. But popular opinion in the US is sadly formed by forces other than silly things like facts.

Yes, so who is to blame for that "perception problem" ? Bin Laden, or the aloof Americans who only know what showed up on CNN? We (speaking as an American) have no excuse. The information is there; if one is not lazy or stupid, he or she can become informed and correct HIS OR HER "perception problem".

[bartdanr]

Hi, Barney,

Lots of americans thought the housing market/stock market was fine too, look where that got them.

Agreed, perceptions can be faulty--but as you point out, perceptions drive behavior.

Anywhere someone does something out of love rather than hate, greed, fear, etc.

All religions teach love of God--and often it seems as though this love motivates actions that are not very loving against one's fellow man. Even Jesus taught one must hate his family if there is a conflict between the two loves (Luke 14:26).

"Does Islam want to govern the world?"

Islam as a theology and philosophy explicitly separates itself from worldly life. It is focused on an individual's self and afterlife.

there is a very common expression in Islamic theology, "deen and dunya". deen means (spiritual, personal) way of life, "dunya" means worldly matters (politics, world faiths, etc). The usage of this expression is used to put focus on the fact that Islam is concerned with things that are "not of this world". You will see this concept from Jesus and Paul and in the hebrew bible as well.

When you say "Islam", are you asking about a government which fashions itself after the Islamic empire and how that nation-state should behave, regarding expansion?

Because what Islam 'governs' is the actions of an individual; nations cannot obey God, only people can.

This is, in a word, nonesense. Islam does NOT make a sharp distinction between politics and Religion. It is a "both/and" approach, not an "either/or". The Quran has commands both covering personal behavior and the running of the state--just like Torah does. Christianity is the odd man out in largely ignoring politics, and I think this speaks more about the origin of Christianity being so different than the origin of the other two faiths.

"Is Islam a religion of peace?"

I can't do justice to the amount written on this subject elsewhere, but Islam itself has a linguistic relationship to the term peace, if you want to translate the word itself into English, you could describe it with terms like 'peace, safety, security, blamelessness'.

but Islam itself, to any arabic speaker, would hae a strong connotation of 'peace', as it is another morphing of the root word 'salama' from which we get salam (hebrew: shalom), which means peace and is used as a traditional greeting.

Doctrinally speaking Islam builds on the teachings of the biblical prophets (hebrews), incorporating their teachings and expounding upon them. In the Islamic scriptures, frequent reference is made to Moses, Jesus, and to the Christian and Hebrew scriptures, and how these things are God-sent. Islam says the teachings of the Hebrew patriarchs (including Jesus) are from God.

I pretty much agree here, except I'd also emphasize the "submission" idea as well. Islam is not a passive, "turn the other cheek" religion and believes that violence is sometimes acceptable (and really, most Christians have this view as well--pacificists are a distinct minority.)

So is the religion of Jesus and Moses "of peace"?

In a word, no. Moses was a man of war and did not teach peace as the ultimate good. Neither did Jesus, and most Christians believe Jesus will kick serious butt when he returns (not to mention that as a member of the Trinity, he was in full accord with the violence in the OT).

After having seen this question asked for so long, I really wonder about its motivation or its natural conclusion; what is a "religion of peace"? Is Islam *not* a religion of peace?

Don't know; but I think "peace" generally means to most people to not fight unless first attacked. To some, even if attacked, do no harm and love your enemies and do good to those that hate you (Luke 6:27). It's hard to believe killing someone is showing love or doing goog to them (and that is yet another reason I find most Christians don't really believe Jesus.)

Yes, so who is to blame for that "perception problem" ? Bin Laden, or the aloof Americans who only know what showed up on CNN? We (speaking as an American) have no excuse. The information is there; if one is not lazy or stupid, he or she can become informed and correct HIS OR HER "perception problem".

Agreed; but we don't even bother to listen to what Bin Laden says, but what we think he says.

[Cow Poke]

Lots of americans thought the housing market/stock market was fine too, look where that got them.

EXCELLENT point, Barny. Lots of Americans were deceived, conned, lied to... but in a very convincing and skillful way, and Lots of Americans got hurt bad. While this, of course, is a "whole nuther thread", a large part of the problem was the sub-prime interest rate scheme. The perception was that "life will go on" and "all is well", and it bit a lot of people in the butt.

(I, praise God, thus far continue to have a good job, a nice home, my 401k was transferred to "cash" before the market tanked, so I'm "personally" relatively unaffected by this current financial crisis - though I'm not saying things could get worse. I didn't buy the perception. )

Anywhere someone does something out of love rather than hate, greed, fear, etc.

So, anywhere someone does something that looks like anger or hatred or terrorism would offset that, yes? And, isn't it reality that "one bad act" gets WAY more publicity and attention than a thousand "kind" acts? It's all about perception.

Islam as a theology and philosophy explicitly separates itself from worldly life. It is focused on an individual's self and afterlife.

Realistically, is this possible?

there is a very common expression in Islamic theology, "deen and dunya". deen means (spiritual, personal) way of life, "dunya" means worldly matters (politics, world faiths, etc).

Interesting. (sincere comment - I learned something - always a welcome event)

The usage of this expression is used to put focus on the fact that Islam is concerned with things that are "not of this world". You will see this concept from Jesus and Paul and in the hebrew bible as well.

But I never saw Jesus or Paul beat people or blow up buildings or teach people how to make IEDs or crave nuclear weapons.

When you say "Islam", are you asking about a government which fashions itself after the Islamic empire and how that nation-state should behave, regarding expansion?

Because what Islam 'governs' is the actions of an individual; nations cannot obey God, only people can.

Therein lies the "perception" problem, Barny. In REAL LIFE, no matter WHAT the "intent" is, or the "divine principles", if the world sees, for example, what's going on right now in Iran, the PERCEPTION is certainly not "peace".

This is where you will try to disassociate "government" or "countries" from "Islam", but in REALITY, the perception is "one in the same".

I can't do justice to the amount written on this subject elsewhere, but Islam itself has a linguistic relationship to the term peace, if you want to translate the word itself into English, you could describe it with terms like 'peace, safety, security, blamelessness'...

I did not ask for a lesson in linguistics. Here again, actions speak much louder than words. I asked "is Islam a religion of peace". I did NOT ask for an etymology.

So is the religion of Jesus and Moses "of peace"? After having seen this question asked for so long, I really wonder about its motivation or its natural conclusion; what is a "religion of peace"? Is Islam *not* a religion of peace?

Comes back to perception. If I SAY I am a man of peace, but I go around bopping people on the head, you would tend to think I'm not true to my word, correct?

Yes, so who is to blame for that "perception problem" ? Bin Laden, or the aloof Americans who only know what showed up on CNN? We (speaking as an American) have no excuse. The information is there; if one is not lazy or stupid, he or she can become informed and correct HIS OR HER "perception problem".

You're being idealistic. It is what it is. If people get the notion that the Republicans, for example, are the "party of the rich", then it's a perception problem for the Republicans, right? THEY have to do something to change that perception, or they're not going to win elections.

[barnasha]

This is where you will try to disassociate "government" or "countries" from "Islam", but in REALITY, the perception is "one in the same".

I presume you're speaking for yourself here... nobody is preventing you from improving your perception so that it properly reflects actuality...

I did not ask for a lesson in linguistics. Here again, actions speak much louder than words. I asked "is Islam a religion of peace". I did NOT ask for an etymology.

it's a heretofore very general question so i addressed it from multiple angles.

I am not in the business of giving terse, hand waving declarations or proclamations; those tend to be meaningless and highly subjective. if one of the angles in which i addressed the question was not sufficient, i'd be glad to dig deeper into any of them.

I asked a few follow up questions to help ascertain just exactly you are asking for and what your question means, in a desire to faithfully understand exactly what you're asking....

[Cow Poke]

I presume you're speaking for yourself here... nobody is preventing you from improving your perception so that it properly reflects actuality...

You are such a funny guy

it's a heretofore very general question so i addressed it from multiple angles.

a simple "yes" or "no" occasionally would be refreshing!

I am not in the business of giving terse, hand waving declarations or proclamations; those tend to be meaningless and highly subjective. if one of the angles in which i addressed the question was not sufficient, i'd be glad to dig deeper into any of them.

how bout just "straight honest simple" Is that not an option?

I asked a few follow up questions to help ascertain just exactly you are asking for and what your question means, in a desire to faithfully understand exactly what you're asking....

Ah ... wasn't sure if they were rhetorical questions or what... please feel free to try again.
Your "quote" usage tended to make my questions to you look like your questions to me.
AND, I noticed you ignored an awful lot of the BASIS for the perception problem - like what's going on in Iran right now...
you simply shift blame to the person holding the perception, with no responsibility whatsoever on "Islam" to correct that perception.