Carrier air to stay in Indiana, at tax payors expense!

[robrecht]

This mercantilism supported by both Trump and Sanders is bad news. The idea of benefitting one's country by hampering mobility of goods, business, or labor has been debunked by economists for centuries. Free trade, including free mobility of business and labor is conducive toward prosperity.
See also: "Countless Ordinary Americans Benefit When Companies Move to Mexico"
https://mises.org/blog/countless-ord...es-move-mexico


Making conditions more favorable by reducing taxes is great. But doing it for particular businesses, results in all the awfulness of crony capitalism. We need to do it across the board, with rule of law, and equality before the law.

Sorry, Joel. It looks like most people will ignore your post because it doesn't fit well with either side in this partisan discussion. Just wanted you to know that I read it!

[Littlejoe]

This mercantilism supported by both Trump and Sanders is bad news. The idea of benefitting one's country by hampering mobility of goods, business, or labor has been debunked by economists for centuries. Free trade, including free mobility of business and labor is conducive toward prosperity.
See also: "Countless Ordinary Americans Benefit When Companies Move to Mexico"
https://mises.org/blog/countless-ord...es-move-mexico


Making conditions more favorable by reducing taxes is great. But doing it for particular businesses, results in all the awfulness of crony capitalism. We need to do it across the board, with rule of law, and equality before the law.

Like everything else, (in spite of it's implication that it is examining the issue in depth), this article takes the same, (albeit opposite side of the coin) basic one-sided simplistic approach. Citing all the benefits that individuals, small and medium size companies that gain from the lower prices. Nothing is said about all the outlying jobs that are affected when a company moves to another jurisdiction. As someone who lives in an area that was devastated by NAFTA, I can tell you it's much worse than most people imagine. I lost my job (our whole service center was shutdown) because 2 companies we serviced moved their factories to Mexico. This was a high-tech job making good money and benefits...This type of tale was very common in our area and felt all over. I still hear from small businesses that service(d) several factories in our area that never recovered because of the loss of business. One man I know owned a Welding company. He biggest customer was a raw dough products company that moved their factory to Canada. (believe it or not). He had to fire pretty much his whole staff...including his own son. I ran into an old friend the other day, he owned a wholesale supply company. He was telling me he went bankrupt and almost lost everything when most of the factories in the area left. He is working for a security company now...he's in his 50's...and says he doubts he'll ever recover enough to retire. Free trade has as many losers as it does winners IMHO...

[shunyadragon]

Actually, if the OP is correct, the point is valid. Trump would be doing something he said he opposed. I'm dubious that he really intentioned to never offer tax benefits to any company. I didn't follow the election until fairly late so I'm willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt.

But valid point or not, it's a minor point at best. No politician gets a perfect record - the world is way too messy for that. As long as the citizens see a net benefit, I don't see grounds for much complaint, beyond the 'he didn't do what he said' part.

It looked to me like he just wanted to put a thumb in an eye with the OP.

Trump was never really involved in the deal, Pence was, and negotiated only to save ~800 jobs, out of ~1600 by offering a tax deal, which is normal for governor's and majors to do regardless of political party. Trump's roll is a meaningless profile parade political stunt.

[robrecht]

... Trump's roll is a meaningless profile parade political stunt.

What is Trump's roll, exactly? Is it a side dish that can be served with Trump steaks?

[Cow Poke]

What is Trump's roll, exactly? Is it a side dish that can be served with Trump steaks?

Are they better than them Hawaiian rolls with real butter? THAT is the question!

rolls.jpeg

[shunyadragon]

What is Trump's roll, exactly? Is it a side dish that can be served with Trump steaks?

Very descriptive and accurate.

[JimL]

As it turns out, Trump and Pence fudged the numbers to make themselves look good. Actually only 730 jobs were saved at tax payers expense to the tune of $10,000,000, while 1300 of those jobs still went to Mexico. I guess they thought that saving 1000 jobs sounded better than saying they saved 730 jobs. I guess Carrier isn't very intimidated by Trumps tough talk about companys moving out of country.

[Sparko]

As it turns out, Trump and Pence fudged the numbers to make themselves look good. Actually only 730 jobs were saved at tax payers expense to the tune of $10,000,000, while 1300 of those jobs still went to Mexico. I guess they thought that saving 1000 jobs sounded better than saying they saved 730 jobs. I guess Carrier isn't very intimidated by Trumps tough talk about companys moving out of country.

really? We have known it was 800 jobs for weeks now JimL, even Jaecp and Shunya mentioned it back on page 2 or 3 of this thread. It was even the number I used in my calculations showing that the tax break of $7 Million over 10 years would be covered in the taxes gained from 800 jobs saved in only one year ($10M in tax revenue)

The number of jobs saved is still 800. 730 Union jobs and 70 salaried jobs.

"Union workers got a letter at the plant saying Trump's deal with Carrier will save only 730 factory jobs in Indianapolis, plus 70 salaried positions - 553 jobs in the plant's fan coil lines are still moving to Monterrey, Mexico."
http://www.wthr.com/article/usw-730-...-deal-not-1100


Try to keep up.

[seanD]

It's funny, while you have liberals like Cenk praising the move, you have conservatives like Palin and Courtier admonishing it. The reverse is also true, evident by this thread. Both opinions seem to be bipartisan.

[JimL]

really? We have known it was 800 jobs for weeks now JimL, even Jaecp and Shunya mentioned it back on page 2 or 3 of this thread. It was even the number I used in my calculations showing that the tax break of $7 Million over 10 years would be covered in the taxes gained from 800 jobs saved in only one year ($10M in tax revenue)

The number of jobs saved is still 800. 730 Union jobs and 70 salaried jobs.

"Union workers got a letter at the plant saying Trump's deal with Carrier will save only 730 factory jobs in Indianapolis, plus 70 salaried positions - 553 jobs in the plant's fan coil lines are still moving to Monterrey, Mexico."
http://www.wthr.com/article/usw-730-...-deal-not-1100


Try to keep up.

No you haven't known, you just thought you knew. 730 jobs were saved in Indianapolis, but all 700 jobs at Carriers Huntington plant as well as the 553 jobs at the plants fan coil lines are going to Mexico. Thats 730 jobs saved and 1253 jobs lost to Mexico. Not that it much matters, Trump boasted that he saved 1100 jobs, but as you can see from the link that he arrived at that total by counting 350 research and development jobs that were never being outsourced to begin with. And btw, your calculations concerning the taxes from the 730 or 800 jobs if you will, that you suppose will cover the 7 million tax give away to Carrier fails to take into consideration the tax revenue lost from the 1253 now unemployed workers. Your not covering anything, your losing the 7 million as well as the tax revenue that would have come from the 1253 lost jobs, not to mention their unemployment benefits.

http://theweek.com/speedreads/665730...d-carrier-deal

[Bill the Cat]

No you haven't known, you just thought you knew. 730 jobs were saved in Indianapolis, but all 700 jobs at Carriers Huntington plant as well as the 553 jobs at the plants fan coil lines are going to Mexico. Thats 730 jobs saved and 1253 jobs lost to Mexico. Not that it much matters, Trump boasted that he saved 1100 jobs, but as you can see from the link that he arrived at that total by counting 350 research and development jobs that were never being outsourced to begin with. And btw, your calculations concerning the taxes from the 730 or 800 jobs if you will, that you suppose will cover the 7 million tax give away to Carrier fails to take into consideration the tax revenue lost from the 1253 now unemployed workers. Your not covering anything, your losing the 7 million as well as the tax revenue that would have come from the 1253 lost jobs, not to mention their unemployment benefits.

http://theweek.com/speedreads/665730...d-carrier-deal

Instead of losing them all.

[Sparko]

No you haven't known, you just thought you knew. [/URL]

Thinking I knew something that happened to be true? And you have a problem with that? And that Jaecp and Shuny also knew?


Are you mad that Trump saved 800 jobs (you keep leaving out the 70 salaried jobs)? Would you have been happier if he didn't save ANY jobs, JimL? Or are you just mad because Carrier got a tax break for only 800 jobs?



As I already said: His deal gives Carrier $700K per year for 10 years in a tax break. That is $7 Million over 10 years.
800 jobs at an average of 50K per year, and figuring a 25% tax bracket, is $10 Million per year in tax revenue. If you subtract the 700K, that is still a net gain of $9.3 Million per year. Or $93 Million over 10 years. GAINED over if Carrier sent those 800 jobs to Mexico.

Just think of how much more money you will get in welfare from those jobs, Jimmy! You will be living high off the hog!

[Cow Poke]

Instead of losing them all.

NEWS FLASH! Jimmy is unhappy with Trump!

[Sparko]

NEWS FLASH! Jimmy is unhappy with Trump!

Say it ain't so, Joe!

[MaxVel]

He's a sore loser and bad sport. Says a lot about his character.