Originally posted by element771
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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John Dominic Crossan - Skepticism towards traditional Christianity
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Originally posted by element771 View PostI am an atheist.
I just happen to believe that God so loved the world that he sent his only son who died for our sins.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNone of this is really relevant, because I am indifferent to a discussion of 'prescriptive of canon law,' or the intricacies of excommunication either way, or how Crossan would be considered a faithful believer either way.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYou're touching on some possible lines of thought, but I am by and large still indifferent to this line of reasoning.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAgain . . . I am indifferent to all this Lilliputian bureaucratic consideration as who is and who is not in favor as to their canonical status with the royal court of bishops' All this is far from my point which I have made specifically clear. Again I am not remotely concerned how the Roman Church considers the status of Crossan.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAs a side note Hans Küng and Edward Schillebeeckx did not come close to the radical departure Crossan describes as his view of Jesus. They walked the edge of Roman Church canon, doctrine and dogma.
Your ignorance on this matter is overwhelming and reflects your selective biased hostile attitude on this.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAgain . . . What points of how Crossan describes his beliefs that I do not understand?βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostJust because you are indifferent, that hardly renders canon law irrelevant to this question.
Again, your indifference is actually what is irrelevant to the issue you asked about.
Need I remind you, the question was in what sense, if any, do I consider Crossan's statement that he is 'irrevocably Roman Catholic' to be a valid statement. This can be discussed on a variety of levels. If you are not interested, don't ask.
You appear to be mostly ignorant or indifferent, which in and of itself may not indicate a lack of understanding. Previously, you were unaware of the fact that Crossan absolutely considers himself a Christian and irrevocably Roman Catholic. At the very least, you can no longer claim ignorance of this fact.
My view is my perspective, and not that of the Roman Church:
I want to emphasize I do consider Crossan a Christian, because of the wide diversity of beliefs of those who call themselves Christian from the Unitarians to the most rigidly orthodox fundamentalist evangelicals, but the description of Jesus by Crossan is diametrically opposite and contradictory. He describes Jesus a humanist Unitarian Jesus. No Resurrection, no Revelation from God, no miracles, no Trinity, and NO GOD, just a rebel with a naive idealistic cause.
But I am not hostile toward the Baha'i faith. My ignorance is based on everything I have learned here from you and Sen McGlinn, and your divergent views of what it means to be a Baha'i. I claim no expertise whatsoever, but I am decidedly not hostile.Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-13-2016, 06:10 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostMy view is my perspective, and not that of the Roman Church:
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI want to emphasize I do consider Crossan a Christian, because of the wide diversity of beliefs of those who call themselves Christian from the Unitarians to the most rigidly orthodox fundamentalist evangelicals, but the description of Jesus by Crossan is diametrically opposite and contradictory. He describes Jesus a humanist Unitarian Jesus. No Resurrection, no Revelation from God, no miracles, no Trinity, and NO GOD, just a rebel with a naive idealistic cause.
Your generalization only reflects one side of one case, and not whole picture. This is not the only case that your bias and hostility has reared its ugly butt. You do not 'learn' the beliefs and character of the Baha'i Faith from Glenn nor I.
By the way, his name is Sen McGlinn, not Glenn.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostBut your view of who is and who is not a Roman Catholic is not nearly as relevant to this question as that of the Roman Catholic Church.
Again . . . What points of how Crossan describes his beliefs that I do not understand?
Your previous response did not answer this question.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI do not remotely believe in the Roman Church's authority, and my view does not need to relevant at all to the authority of the Roman Church. It is simply based on the fact of the description of his beliefs by Crossan.
Again . . . What points of how Crossan describes his beliefs that I do not understand?
Your previous response did not answer this question.
I did answer your question, but allow me to repeat myself if you do not remember. You appear to be mostly indifferent, which in and of itself may not indicate a current lack of understanding. Previously, however, you were unaware of the fact that Crossan absolutely considers himself a Christian and irrevocably Roman Catholic. At the very least, you can no longer claim ignorance of this fact.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostThe issue is not whether or not you believe in the rights of the Roman Catholic Church to define who is and who is not a member of the Roman Catholic Church.
I did answer your question, but allow me to repeat myself if you do not remember. You appear to be mostly indifferent, which in and of itself may not indicate a current lack of understanding. Previously, however, you were unaware of the fact that Crossan absolutely considers himself a Christian and irrevocably Roman Catholic. At the very least, you can no longer claim ignorance of this fact.
Again . . . What points of how Crossan describes his beliefs that I do not understand?
Question remains unanswered.
Corssan's claim of being a believer in the Roman Church rivals element 771's claim of being an atheist.Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-13-2016, 08:56 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI am NOT defining who is and who is not a member of the Roman Church from the perspective of the Roman Church. I have made this clear many times.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo you did not answer the question. It has nothing to with Crossan's claim of being a believer in the Roman church. The question directly and specifically refers to how Crossan describe his beliefs.
Again . . . What points of how Crossan describes his beliefs that I do not understand?
Question remains unanswered.
Corssan's claim of being a believer in the Roman Church rivals element 771's claim of being an atheist.
Crossan's beliefs about his being a Christian and irrevocably Roman Catholic are to date the only two of his beliefs that I have addressed in this thread. I did not realize you were asking for my assessment of your level of comprehension of any of his other beliefs. Before I think about how I might try to answer that for you, can you at least tell me why your are interested in my assessing how well you currently understand other beliefs of Crossan?βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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