Blockbuster CIA report: Russia definitely meddled in U.S. election to elect Trump.

[JonathanL]

No more so than the nearly 4 million votes she won in Texas.

Of course it does. In California she was ahead by over 4 million votes, in Texas she was behind by ~800 000 votes.

California is literally the only reason Hillary won the popular vote.

[rogue06]

not to mention it's entirely irrelevant. Both candidates were competing to win the most Electoral College votes, not the popular vote. Both Candidates would have run very different campaigns if they were focusing on winning the popular vote.

It's like listening to one side bitterly whine that they should have won the baseball game because they got more hits than the other team when everyone knows it is who gets the most runs that matters.

[Jaecp]

Of course it does. In California she was ahead by over 4 million votes, in Texas she was behind by ~800 000 votes.

California is literally the only reason Hillary won the popular vote.

So? You don't get to just dismiss California because it's the biggest state. We could just as easily say that Trump only won the EC because of Texas as without those 38 votes he goes from 307 to 269.

17 dishonest sources does not compare to one single trustworthy one.

Oh? Go on

[Tassman]

The left keeps ignoring the fact that Russia allegedly airing Hillary's dirty laundry is not the problem. The problem is that she had so much dirty laundry to air.

That is not the problem.

The problem which you keep brushing under the carpet is that a hostile power, Russia, has attempted to undermine democracy in the USA for its own ends. This is acknowledged by all the main US security agencies.

sigh. The Guardian. You should not keep giving us hell about using Breitbart if you are going to use the Guardian.

Utter crap!

Unlike the scurrilous Alt Right Breitbart, The Guardian is a reputable, award-winning British news agency.

[Jaecp]

Hey, I was looking at that source Sparko used to try and discredit my claim that Russia was directly behind this and trying to help Trump and looky what popped up!

U.S. government loses to Russia's disinformation campaign: advisers

Man, Sparks, this Reuters thing is full of useful information. How about you use it for something beyond google fu-ing what you already believe?

That is not the problem.

The problem which you keep brushing under the carpet is that a hostile power, Russia, has attempted to undermine democracy in the USA for its own ends. This is acknowledged by all the main US security agencies.

And the podesta emails contain very little that actually surprised me. Hell, Starlight freaking hates Hillary Clinton, still does as far as I know, and even he was surprised by how little was actually in there. People claim theres proof that the DNC rigged the primary against Bernie. There isn't, the emails people use to claim that all came from after we'd mathematically lost. People claim that there was some anti-Catholic thing and Spartacus, I believe, made some comment regarding how he later realized that the people talking were, themselves, Catholic and were talking about how to improve things. The closest I can find to any of the various "bombshell" claims being accurate is that thing about Donna Brazil during the primary when she passed on office gossip about the debate questions to the Clinton campaign at a point where Sanders not conceding started to hurt our chances in the general because it was past the point when we could win.

It was a case where a mountain was being made out of a molehill

[JimL]

not to mention it's entirely irrelevant. Both candidates were competing to win the most Electoral College votes, not the popular vote. Both Candidates would have run very different campaigns if they were focusing on winning the popular vote.

Thats a bunch of what Joe Biden would call Malarkey. The campaigning goes on for years, its not as though the voters didn't know the candidates or what they stand for.

[Jaecp]

Thats a bunch of what Joe Biden would call Malarkey. The campaigning goes on for years, its not as though the voters didn't know the candidates or what they stand for.

Mm, especially because there are elections are every level of government. People didn't just vote for President. Plus the coordinated campaign exists and it exists in every state. The coordinate campaign drives voters to vote for President even in states that are absolutely gimmies. Even here in Washington, quite possibly the most liberal state in the country, still had people making calls for Clinton as well as the other candidates. This talking point ignores how political campaigns are actually ran in America.

[Tassman]

Hey, I was looking at that source Sparko used to try and discredit my claim that Russia was directly behind this and trying to help Trump and looky what popped up!

U.S. government loses to Russia's disinformation campaign: advisers

Man, Sparks, this Reuters thing is full of useful information. How about you use it for something beyond google fu-ing what you already believe?



And the podesta emails contain very little that actually surprised me. Hell, Starlight freaking hates Hillary Clinton, still does as far as I know, and even he was surprised by how little was actually in there. People claim theres proof that the DNC rigged the primary against Bernie. There isn't, the emails people use to claim that all came from after we'd mathematically lost. People claim that there was some anti-Catholic thing and Spartacus, I believe, made some comment regarding how he later realized that the people talking were, themselves, Catholic and were talking about how to improve things. The closest I can find to any of the various "bombshell" claims being accurate is that thing about Donna Brazil during the primary when she passed on office gossip about the debate questions to the Clinton campaign at a point where Sanders not conceding started to hurt our chances in the general because it was past the point when we could win.

It was a case where a mountain was being made out of a molehill

As just about everything to do with the vitriolic anti-Hillary narrative has been. Remember the 6 million partisan Benghazi witch-hunt? What a total waste of taxpayer's money that was. Or Hillary's supposed terminal illness and the dire conspiracy theories surrounding that? And the FBI investigation into her emails which found they couldn't indict her...only to be reopened weeks before the election...and then closed again after the damage was done?

And for what...to install a fascist tyrant boy/man in the White House, who will be surrounded by self-interested billionaires, war-mongers and white nationalists. Trump takes office with the full support of the Russian government and his finger readily on the trigger for anyone who upsets his thin skin. This is what the once great Republic of the USA has come to. The world will be lucky to survive it.

[JimL]

That is not the problem.

The problem which you keep brushing under the carpet is that a hostile power, Russia, has attempted to undermine democracy in the USA for its own ends. This is acknowledged by all the main US security agencies.

Yep, and the Russians have been and are doing the same thing throughout Europe as well. And now they have Trump helping them out. Trumps NSA General Flynn, a Putin loving, propaganda spreading, conspiracy theorist, just met with the leader of Austria's far right Freedom party at Trump tower. The Freedom party, which has its roots in Nazism, and is financially supported by Russia and Putin. Trump and Putin are Oligarchs, Putin is the richest man in the world with a net worth of 87 billion dollars, stolen from the Russian people, and Trump, just like Putin, has installed Oligarchs in the highest positions of power. People had better wake up!

[Jaecp]

Yep, and the Russians have been and are doing the same thing throughout Europe as well. And now they have Trump helping them out. Trumps NSA General Flynn, a Putin loving, propaganda spreading, conspiracy theorist, just met with the leader of Austria's far right Freedom party at Trump tower. The Freedom party, which has its roots in Nazism, and is financially supported by Russia and Putin. Trump and Putin are Oligarchs, Putin is the richest man in the world with a net worth of 87 billion dollars, stolen from the Russian people, and Trump, just like Putin, has installed Oligarchs in the highest positions of power. People had better wake up!

Jim, how do you ever expect any of the people here to take us seriously though? We're liberals.

[Jaecp]

As just about everything to do with the vitriolic anti-Hillary narrative has been. Remember the 6 million partisan Benghazi witch-hunt? What a total waste of taxpayer's money that was. Or Hillary's supposed terminal illness and the dire conspiracy theories surrounding that? And the FBI investigation into her emails which found they couldn't indict her...only to be reopened weeks before the election...and then closed again after the damage was done?

And for what...to install a fascist tyrant boy/man in the White House, who will be surrounded by self-interested billionaires, war-mongers and white nationalists. Trump takes office with the full support of the Russian government and his finger readily on the trigger for anyone who upsets his thin skin. This is what the once great Republic of the USA has come to. The world will be lucky to survive it.

I do, Jamie, I do. Been tempted to ask around my foreign friends to see if I can take an, ahh, extended vacation, but I'm too invested in the fight here, got people depending on me. This election cycle was, like much of what happened politically in the last decade, absolutely unprecedented, or perhaps I should say "unpresidented", and I share many of your same worries. I feel legitimately bad for the people who think he is going to be their savior :( He has admitted many of his campaign promises were bunk. The walls probably going to be a fence, there won't be a special prosecutor for the Clintons, and more. Such an utter joke. The man flat out admits that he was manipulating them to get into office and the only response I get around here is the same boring, tired (not to mention false) claim that this is business as usual, that all politicians do this. Nonsense, one and all. Oh, and yes, "draining the swamp" by having the single richest cabinet in US history.

Oh, and I think we usually call them "man boy's" on this site of the ocean ;)

[JimL]

Jim, how do you ever expect any of the people here to take us seriously though? We're liberals.

I don't Jaecp, I've been posting here for many years and have found that it is virtually impossible. Minds are difficult to change, but for the Christian fundementalist conservatives, which is mostly what you have here, it is virtually impossible to change their views on anything. Their minds are basically closed, and they will defend to the end what they believe regardless of any facts you put in front of them. The scales will most likely never fall from their eyes.

[Jaecp]

I don't Jaecp, I've been posting here for many years and have found that it is virtually impossible. Minds are difficult to change, but for the Christian fundementalist conservatives, which is mostly what you have here, it is virtually impossible to change their views on anything. Their minds are basically closed, and they will defend to the end what they believe regardless of any facts you put in front of them. The scales will most likely never fall from their eyes.

You might enjoy reading this

https://granta.com/why-were-post-fact/

It delves into the whole "post fact" thing that seems to be on the tips of everyones tongues these days. It's a baffling thing to deal with as how in the hell do you compete in a marketplace of idea's when those idea's don't have to be based on anything?

[Mountain Man]

If the intelligence reports were false MM, if the agencies themselves were not in agreement with the validity of those reports, then those agencies wouldn't just let those false narratives stand. Stop calling everyone else dumb, and start using your own head.

Ah, it's the "I'm right until you prove me wrong" routine. A favorite of the dull-witted.

[Mountain Man]

This is acknowledged by all the main US security agencies.

Yeah, about that...

You know, I've been trying to chase this down, but everything I'm finding suggests that this statement is false. The "17 intelligence agencies confirm Russian interference" meme apparently came from something Hillary said in one of the debates, but I can find no official confirmation. Everything seems to loop back to the Joint DHS and ODNI Election Security Statement which you posted earlier which explicitly refutes the notion that the Russians could alter our election results and falls far short of actually accusing them of hacking into our computers let alone presenting any sort of evidence to support such an accusation. Oh, and the guy who actually wrote the press release? Let's just say he's not the most reliable individual.

Any claim of broad agreement between agencies seems to be coming exclusively from unnamed sources while the agencies themselves don't appear to have said anything one way or the other.