John Calvin's teachings on the origin or creation of "evil"

[RonC]

The first thread I opened on this forum (in Biblical Languages) I completely bollixed up – a kind moderator saved me! I pray that I have learned something! So…

I posed this question in another thread and got resounding silence. Perhaps it will happen again with this thread!

Many of the issues regarding John Calvin's teachings discussed in the threads I have read on this forum run into problems, it seems to me, because they have to do with Calvin's understanding of evil. That is the basis for this thread which asks if anyone might…

Please explain Calvin's teachings on the origin or creation of "evil" and/or the meaning of the Hebrew term translated as "evil".

Please cite the writings of John Calvin in support of your assertions regarding the subject.

[RBerman]

Have you read Calvin on the topic? What do you think he said and meant? It sounds like you want everyone else to do the heavy lifting and spoonfeed you an argument that you can sit back and pick apart without putting forth a positive argument of your own.

[nikolai_42]

The first thread I opened on this forum (in Biblical Languages) I completely bollixed up – a kind moderator saved me! I pray that I have learned something! So…

I posed this question in another thread and got resounding silence. Perhaps it will happen again with this thread!

Many of the issues regarding John Calvin's teachings discussed in the threads I have read on this forum run into problems, it seems to me, because they have to do with Calvin's understanding of evil. That is the basis for this thread which asks if anyone might…

Please explain Calvin's teachings on the origin or creation of "evil" and/or the meaning of the Hebrew term translated as "evil".

Please cite the writings of John Calvin in support of your assertions regarding the subject.

One narrow example comes to mind : Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7

I found that Calvin said this :

“By the words ‘light’ and ‘darkness’ he describes metaphorically not only peace and war, but adverse and prosperous events of any kind ; and he extends the word peace, according to the custom of Hebrew writers, to all success and prosperity. This is made abundantly clear by the contrast; for he contrasts ‘peace’ not only with war, but with adverse events of every sort. Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts ‘peace’ with ‘evil’, that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted ‘righteousness’ with ‘evil,’ there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the ‘evil’ of punishment, but not of the ‘evil’ of guilt. Calvin’s Commentaries: Volume VIII, Isaiah 33-66

...and more generally on evil...

. . . the Lord had declared that "everything that he had made . . . was exceedingly good" [Gen. 1:31]. Whence, then comes this wickedness to man, that he should fall away from his God? Lest we should think it comes from creation, God had put His stamp of approval on what had come forth from himself. By his own evil intention, then, man corrupted the pure nature he had received from the Lord; and by his fall drew all his posterity with him into destruction. Accordingly, we should contemplate the evident cause of condemnation in the corrupt nature of humanity-which is closer to us-rather than seek a hidden and utterly incomprehensible cause in God's predestination. [Institutes, 3:23:8]

Hope that gets things started.

[RonC]

Have you read Calvin on the topic? What do you think he said and meant? It sounds like you want everyone else to do the heavy lifting and spoonfeed you an argument that you can sit back and pick apart without putting forth a positive argument of your own.

I am familiar with the writings of John Calvin. I was curious about others understanding of them. If one is a Calvinist, my request should not be "heavy lifting" at all -- one should have it at the tip of their tongue.

[RonC]

One narrow example comes to mind : Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7

I found that Calvin said this :



...and more generally on evil...



Hope that gets things started.

Thank you for your post. It is helpful. However, RBerman does bring up a good point. I need to outline my concern with this issue. I have seen how over emotional repsonses can be in this forum and had hoped to avoid it, but RBerman is correct. Let me spell out more clearly my concerns...

My concern is very simple.

I do not think that John Calvin’s writings on the source/origin of evil and his analysis (or lack thereof) of the Ancient Hebrew term from the OT translated into English as “evil” are adequate enough to build an exegetical edifice such as his and be taken seriously.

This does not mean that I reject all of Calvin’s thoughts outright. Much of his understand is close to the mark. This is an attempt to see if there are misunderstandings in some of his assumptions.

With regard to the two passages you cite:

His analysis of Isaiah 45:7 does not address the Hebrew at all and because of that his conclusions are not supported by the text. Nowhere in the text is “evil” limited to certain types of evil… and taking this tact opens up huge issues with regard to the Hebrew.

With regard to the second commentary, Calvin faces the dilemma that, given Genesis 1:31, the Creator’s very definition of goodness includes that which possesses “his own [man's] evil intentions”. This opens serious exegetical issues with regard to God’s creation and His divine assessment of it in Genesis 1:31.

Again, Calvin does not address the original Hebrew and this renders his conclusions seriously flawed.

Can anyone cite where Calvin addresses the original Hebrew meaning of the terms?

I guess I am asking if anyone can show where Calvin has a clear understanding of the creation/origin of “evil” and how he supports that with the original Hebrew text?

[nikolai_42]

Thank you for your post. It is helpful. However, RBerman does bring up a good point. I need to outline my concern with this issue. I have seen how over emotional repsonses can be in this forum and had hoped to avoid it, but RBerman is correct. Let me spell out more clearly my concerns...

My concern is very simple.

I do not think that John Calvin’s writings on the source/origin of evil and his analysis (or lack thereof) of the Ancient Hebrew term from the OT translated into English as “evil” are adequate enough to build an exegetical edifice such as his and be taken seriously.

This does not mean that I reject all of Calvin’s thoughts outright. Much of his understand is close to the mark. This is an attempt to see if there are misunderstandings in some of his assumptions.

With regard to the two passages you cite:

His analysis of Isaiah 45:7 does not address the Hebrew at all and because of that his conclusions are not supported by the text. Nowhere in the text is “evil” limited to certain types of evil… and taking this tact opens up huge issues with regard to the Hebrew.

With regard to the second commentary, Calvin faces the dilemma that, given Genesis 1:31, the Creator’s very definition of goodness includes that which possesses “his own [man's] evil intentions”. This opens serious exegetical issues with regard to God’s creation and His divine assessment of it in Genesis 1:31.

Again, Calvin does not address the original Hebrew and this renders his conclusions seriously flawed.

Can anyone cite where Calvin addresses the original Hebrew meaning of the terms?

I guess I am asking if anyone can show where Calvin has a clear understanding of the creation/origin of “evil” and how he supports that with the original Hebrew text?

I'm afraid I'm going to have to remain more or less silent on the matter since I know neither the Hebrew nor (with any great familiarity) Calvin's thoughts on evil in the OT (Strong's says the Hebrew root, at least, is "ra"). About as far as I can go is that Calvin was loathe to yield much of ANYTHING in making God Sovereign.

All I can add to the discussion is that I find something in Jesus' comment in John 8:44 that has always intrigued me :

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:44

Now, if one accepts that Satan is a created being, then whence HIS evil? If we can apply Jesus' statement rigorously, then are we forced to the conclusion that God created an evil being? It's not a conclusion I am bold enough to draw myself, but it certainly seems (to me, at the very least) to call into question some of the tidy theological ideas about God and eternal matters that require speculation but sound reasonable. Of course, at that point, one has to see that God also told Adam and Eve about a tree - the fruit of which, if they ate, would make them like God (knowing good and evil). So one could also speculate that this idea of evil naturally comes about from God's act of Creating (something good?) and not of itself. It may well be a secondary result - I don't know.

But since this doesn't address your question about the Hebrew or about Calvin's ideas, I don't know that you want to get into my thought on this thread.

[Arminian]

You can find Calvin's thoughts detailed in Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God , somewhere around the ninth or tenth section. I think he said that evil is ordained, but God is not the originator, or something close to that.

In Institutes, however, he talks about the Holy Spirit affecting some people in ways that make them think they are truly believers, even though they are not. Calvin said this demonstrated how depraved the people were.

[Obsidian]

That's kinda disturbing.

[RonC]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to remain more or less silent on the matter since I know neither the Hebrew nor (with any great familiarity) Calvin's thoughts on evil in the OT (Strong's says the Hebrew root, at least, is "ra"). About as far as I can go is that Calvin was loathe to yield much of ANYTHING in making God Sovereign.

All I can add to the discussion is that I find something in Jesus' comment in John 8:44 that has always intrigued me :

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:44

Now, if one accepts that Satan is a created being, then whence HIS evil? If we can apply Jesus' statement rigorously, then are we forced to the conclusion that God created an evil being? It's not a conclusion I am bold enough to draw myself, but it certainly seems (to me, at the very least) to call into question some of the tidy theological ideas about God and eternal matters that require speculation but sound reasonable. Of course, at that point, one has to see that God also told Adam and Eve about a tree - the fruit of which, if they ate, would make them like God (knowing good and evil). So one could also speculate that this idea of evil naturally comes about from God's act of Creating (something good?) and not of itself. It may well be a secondary result - I don't know.

But since this doesn't address your question about the Hebrew or about Calvin's ideas, I don't know that you want to get into my thought on this thread.

I actually think you have zeroed in on exactly what the issue is with Calvin and some others. That is why I wanted to discuss Calvin's writings on the origin/creation of evil as well as the meaning of the term which we first see in Genesis (which is where your thought so rightly went).

You pose very important questions. Do we accept “that Satan is a created being”… if so “if so, whence HIS evil?”

You cite Jesus’ words in John 8:44. This too (for me) is one of the most important approaches to scripture for one who claims to be a Christian: First, seek out what Jesus said… he is after all referred to as “master” by all others in the NT… so always best to seek out the master’s words and teachings first.

I do not think you realize how insightful your comment “So one could also speculate that this idea of evil naturally comes about from God's act of Creating (something good?) and not of itself.” is. Incorporate into this the fact that the Greek term most often used by Jesus and translated into English as “sin” is a Greek term which means “to miss the target” or to “stray from the road”…

[RonC]

You can find Calvin's thoughts detailed in Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God , somewhere around the ninth or tenth section. I think he said that evil is ordained, but God is not the originator, or something close to that.

In Institutes, however, he talks about the Holy Spirit affecting some people in ways that make them think they are truly believers, even though they are not. Calvin said this demonstrated how depraved the people were.

Actually I am fairly familiar with Calvin's writings. I focused here on the subject of evil because it is one of the foundational elements of his teachings... and one that he does not give enough sustenance to build an exegetical edifice such as his and be taken seriously. I think that this is the reason no one is addressing this subject -- there are no major analysis by Calvin of the origin/creation of evil and the meaning of the Hebrew term itself that are scripturally and linguistically based.

[RonC]

That's kinda disturbing.

I am not sure what you are referring to.

[Calminian]

Actually I am fairly familiar with Calvin's writings. I focused here on the subject of evil because it is one of the foundational elements of his teachings... and one that he does not give enough sustenance to build an exegetical edifice such as his and be taken seriously. I think that this is the reason no one is addressing this subject -- there are no major analysis by Calvin of the origin/creation of evil and the meaning of the Hebrew term itself that are scripturally and linguistically based.

Bummer, I was hoping you point it out to us. I know quite a few Calvin enthusiasts who seem to take an arminian angle (or at least LFW angle) to the creation of evil question. In fact I just recently listened to a John MacArthur audio link in which he blasted the idea that God created evil, and also clarified the Isaiah passage. But I would be curious where Calvin himself stood.

[RBerman]

That's kinda disturbing.

And yet we all know people who think they're saved, but we think, "Hmm, I wouldn't be so sure of that." And God knows about that situation, and has not prevented it.

[RonC]

But I would be curious where Calvin himself stood.

That is why I started the thread... I guess no one really knows...

[Cross Reference]

Calvin cannot stand on the issue at all simply because he sees man as being totally depraved. To support or connect what can't be connected, volumes have been written in the attempt to explain away the false premises concocted by wrongly interpreting the scriptures. What can't be explained is written off as being a, "mystery".

In my thread: Vanity, is it a sin?": I premise my thoughts on what I believe to be a wrong interpretation of Romans 8:20. No commentaries, so far, have agreed with me. In viewing it as they do they have created large gaps in the writings that rational thought cannot repair. One has to begin again from the beginning to see that vanity was was and is not a sin and remains the issue for man to overcome. Because of a wrong interpretation we are caused to see it as sin. The issue of the sin of pride comes easily to mind. Vanity [emptiness of being] is not pride but the root or cause of it as well as other human maladies.

If we view vanity as being sin and we all know the difficulties we experience with vanity and vanity being something man is subjected to BECAUSE of the fall, is it any wonder that someone would call man depraved? Man is full of it whether saved or not and the Calvinist is at a loss to explain why man remains so after salvation.

Vanity of itself, is monster and yet it is, as I dimly see it, the human disposition devoid of divinity. How we deal its demands upon us is the issue and the fact that we must deal with deal with it is evidence that man is NOT totally depraved. See Jn 6 for the words Jesus.

"Our God is a jealous God". Is the bible stating God to be a vain God? God forbid. However, it does call for an explanation, doesn't it? I did my best to do so in my thread.

OMT, Jesus overcame sin with His life that we might overcome our vanity with our life, but set in Him. We have no life to fight with if not of Him.