Why do so many Christians dislike Mary?

[Obsidian]

The Orthodox pretty much don't believe in the atonement, Adrift -- but that's a whole different argument from this one. Suffice it to say, Samuel's salvation should've been complete when Saul and the medium tried to pray to him.

[headheart]

Or perhaps you forgot to do your homework or couldn't be bothered reading the others sides defense, or perhaps you feel you are not making much headway in the current argument so you are resorting to old tired and worn out distraction tactics.

Good point.

On the Perpetual Virginity

On the Immaculate Conception of Mary

(by John Michael Talbot)

Sincerely,
HH

[Adrift]

The Orthodox pretty much don't believe in the atonement, Adrift -- but that's a whole different argument from this one. Suffice it to say, Samuel's salvation should've been complete when Saul and the medium tried to pray to him.

hmm

[Nightingale]

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil. 2:12)

Rather than an "I'm saved" sort of thing, the Orthodox/Catholic tradition teaches that we must work towards salvation, knowing we are saved only when we are with Christ in Heaven. As for Redemption, that was accomplished by Christ 2000 years ago, no questions there.

To what Obsidian is saying about Samuel, if it were possible that his salvation were complete (by the merit of Christ) though Christ had not yet come temporally, then why is it not possible that Mary should be free of sin (by the merit of Christ) though temporally before the death of Christ? (Just a note, I'm not sold on the "complete" salvation of Samuel before the death of Christ.)

Thanks for the links HH. If one wants to read more on the perpetual virginity, St. Jerome's work is the way to go: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.vi.v.html

[Obsidian]

The whole reason Jerome wrote that was because there was another man (Jovinian) going around teaching that celibacy was not inherently righteous and that Mary did not remain a virgin -- and also that salvation could not be lost, btw, although his doctrines remain unclear because his writings were destroyed.

And I do believe that salvation is "complete" at death in the sense that we are fully sanctified once we enter heaven. But I also believe we are fully dead when we enter heaven, the same way Samuel was dead. Thus, saying prayers to us violates the law of Moses.

[RBerman]

To what Obsidian is saying about Samuel, if it were possible that his salvation were complete (by the merit of Christ) though Christ had not yet come temporally, then why is it not possible that Mary should be free of sin (by the merit of Christ) though temporally before the death of Christ?

You're comparing apples and oranges. "Samuel's salvation (from his sins) was complete by the time of his death" is a different issue than "Mary was free from sin in the first place."

[headheart]

Thanks for the links HH. If one wants to read more on the perpetual virginity, St. Jerome's work is the way to go: link

Hi Nightingale,

I am a regular at ccel.org and have read quite a bit over the years. There was a time when I would have joined in with the hecklers, but I now appreciate the idea of Mary's significance as the hand maiden of the Lord.
However, the ideas of 'inheritence', and 'original sin' are still in my melting pot, for theologically speaking the matter or impartation vs imputation is still bobbing up and down in the cauldron.

Attachment 67254

Sincerely,
HH

[One Bad Pig]

Sure, he was just asking her to say a righteous prayer. What's wrong with that?

No, he wasn't.

I don't buy this distinction between the OT and NT with regard to whether people are "dead." There's no biblical evidence to support it.

I don't buy that you've gotten the distinction correct, since you can't seem to distinguish between prayer to the saints and a seance. There is a distinction between the OT and NT, but not the one you think I'm making.

Paul refers to dead believers as "asleep," but he's just being euphemistic. They're dead.

No, really?

[Pilgrim]

The more I think about it the more I think people don't like here because she dresses so frumpy. Come on Mary, how about something with some shape to it? You're the mother of God for crying out loud, you really need to dress better!

[One Bad Pig]

The Orthodox pretty much don't believe in the atonement, Adrift -- but that's a whole different argument from this one.

It's also a false statement. The Orthodox hold to the Christus Victor view of the atonement rather than the penal substitution model developed by Anselm and held widely throughout Protestantism and Roman Catholicism.

[One Bad Pig]

what makes you think that salvation is not complete upon our making Jesus lord?

I don't think that. When do you think we've completely made Jesus Lord?

Our salvation is not contingent on our works anyways, but on Christ Jesus' sacrifice.

I agree.

[Adrift]

I don't think that. When do you think we've completely made Jesus Lord?

When you confess with your mouth Jesus is lord and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead.

[Obsidian]

yeah you hold to the Christus Victor model...which is a joke in itself

I don't buy that you've gotten the distinction correct, since you can't seem to distinguish between prayer to the saints and a seance. There is a distinction between the OT and NT, but not the one you think I'm making.

Then why don't you explain to me the difference.

[RBerman]

yeah you hold to the Christus Victor model...which is a joke in itself.

Christus Victor, as I understand it, is not false. It's simply incomplete as an explanation for Christ's passion.

[headheart]

In researching the development of Marian dogma, I've found that most of the first Protestants held a very high opinion of Mary. Both Luther and Calvin believed in her perpetual virginity and divine maternity, Luther believed in her immaculate conception, and Oecolampadius even taught that she was the Mediatrix of all graces! Why has this switched around to the point where I've heard many Protestants discourage even talking about Mary?

Hi Nightingale,

I must admit that there was a time when I would not talk about Mary either, but that was after I was poisoned by Protestantism and their terrible anti-Catholic theology. I think I am better now.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Sincerely,
HH