Wow, I actually disagreed with William Lane Craig

[Manwë Súlimo]

WLC was speaking on his Reasonable Faith podcast about a church that cancelled its service to minister to the poor and he absolutely slammed them for it. He said (and I agree) that church is to worship God and (and here I disagree) to cancel it to help the poor "smacks of idolatry". I'm a bit disappointed in my favorite philosopher.

Worship, IMO, isn't only what takes place inside a church. I see Christian worship as a way of life where one follows the law of God, so ministering to the poor or helping in a soup kitchen or being a good citizen would all be considered forms of worship, not just singing and such.

What do you think?

[Trusty]

No worries. Craig is my favorite too and I disagree with him on several things, this would be one of them.

On the flip side, I disagree with Calvinism, but that doesn't make everything Calvinists say disagreeable.

[Little Shepherd]

I wouldn't necessarily call it idolatry, but I would agree that it was a very bad judgment call. The church service is to inform and educate the congregation on right doctrine so that they are better-equipped when they do other services such as help the poor, etc.

That said, both are important functions. If you have to cancel one to do the other, though, something's gotten very screwed up along the way.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I think it was a bad judgment call as well. Worship is there to glorify God and we are not to cancel time for worship to do good deeds and worship in our own way. We are to be doing good deeds anyway. I can see why Craig said what he said. It is putting serving man above serving God, and in that case, that is idolatry. Of course, I don't believe he's saying it's intentionally idolatrous, but that is the end result.

[Obsidian]

I mostly agree with Craig. I do think it's inaccurate, though, to call church "worship." I think church is really more about education and training than it is about worship. Like you said, worship involves our entire life, not just singing songs in church. But like Craig and others here have suggested, the Bible calls us to attend church and train ourselves for true worship.

So yeah, what the church did was dumb. The idea probably affected Craig so deeply because he cares about reinvigorating the intellect of Christianity. And if no one is learning in church, well that's even less intellect to go around...

[DanK]

I do think it's inaccurate, though, to call church "worship." I think church is really more about education and training than it is about worship.

Ah, but is that the way it should be, or just the way it currently is?

[Obsidian]

It's the way it should be. Worship is a lifestyle, not a series of hymns or ceremonies. Hymns and ceremonies can be part of a worshipful lifestyle, but equating them with "worship" is immature. I personally think the main reason we sing hymns is for our own benefit as much as for God's. God desires mercy, not sacrifice. Hymns are like singing the national anthem before a baseball game; it doesn't actually benefit any personal entity, but it enhances the patriotism of the participants. Hymns should reinforce spiritual truths, but it's hard to see what inherent value they would have for God. (They probably do have some inherent value for God, but I'm just saying that's not their main purpose.) That's why some of the shallow music in modern churches is so destructive: It pretty much defeats the point of singing at all when you rob the music of content.

But while I'm agreeing with Eru that worship is a lifestyle, I think intellectualism is important in strengthening that lifestyle.

[Darfius]

I find this to be relevant to this thread:

James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

[Jin-Roh]

WLC was speaking on his Reasonable Faith podcast about a church that cancelled its service to minister to the poor and he absolutely slammed them for it. He said (and I agree) that church is to worship God and (and here I disagree) to cancel it to help the poor "smacks of idolatry". I'm a bit disappointed in my favorite philosopher.

Worship, IMO, isn't only what takes place inside a church. I see Christian worship as a way of life where one follows the law of God, so ministering to the poor or helping in a soup kitchen or being a good citizen would all be considered forms of worship, not just singing and such.

What do you think?

Well, I am sure there are many things that WLC might say that I could find disagreeable at this point.

I really want to know the context, but that does sound a little hyperbolic.

What I really want to know, is how did"serving the poor" and "going to church" become disjunctive. Obviously, I agree with the OP in worship in the broadest sense which includes service and everyday Christian life; but clearer within that is the need for narrower Sunday worship service inwhich we spend time together and with God, practicing praying, take sacraments, listen to scripture whatever.

These two things shouldn't really be disjunctive. Could the serving the poor not wait until after the service was over?

[timspong]

The primary functions of a church body is to:

1. find the lost
2. mature the saints
3. worship God

Caring for the poor would come under #2 i.e. it is an outworking of maturity in the faith, a fruit of the spirit.

I personally see no scriptural warrant for limiting the term "church" to a sunday gathering in a dedicated building. The term "church" should have far more inclusive connotations and gathering together to in fellowship to help the poor in the name of Christ is just as worthy of being termed "doing church" as the former.

I subscribe to WLC's podcast, but regretfully find little that I fully agree with. It all sounds very substantive but he is obviously operating under different basic presuppositions.

[Obsidian]

It could definitely have waited until the service was over, Jin-Roh. The pastor just sounds like he was too lazy to write a sermon each week. And in response to Darfius, I wonder how many of these "poor" are orphans and widows. I'm guessing not that many.

[Adrift]

WLC was speaking on his Reasonable Faith podcast about a church that cancelled its service to minister to the poor and he absolutely slammed them for it. He said (and I agree) that church is to worship God and (and here I disagree) to cancel it to help the poor "smacks of idolatry". I'm a bit disappointed in my favorite philosopher.

Worship, IMO, isn't only what takes place inside a church. I see Christian worship as a way of life where one follows the law of God, so ministering to the poor or helping in a soup kitchen or being a good citizen would all be considered forms of worship, not just singing and such.

What do you think?

When was this podcast, I just got done listening to the one on July 27th and didn't hear him talking about this. Maybe I missed it though since I was multitasking.

Also, I'm not certain this is something I'd completely disagree with in a certain context. Anyways, there's nothing surprising about not agreeing with everyone all the time. I find I disagree with my own pastor on more issues than I do WL Craig or Ravi Zacharias, and then there are a occasions when I disagree with those two as well. there's no big deal in that. No one knows it all, and its probably more true that I'm wrong in my disagreement with them than the other way around. The only word I trust to have the corner on absolute truth is God's.

[Obsidian]

No, William Lane Craig is never wrong. He's infallible, kind of like the pope.

[Adrift]

No, William Lane Craig is never wrong. He's infallible, kind of like the pope.

Exactly at what point does the pope become infallible? Like, can he be infallible before taking the office? Or does the office infer infallibility upon him?

[Obsidian]

I'm not sure, but I think it's the hat