Messianic Passages

[Obsidian]

I know that Jews tend to reject the notion that certain passages from the OT (e.g., Isaiah 53) pointed to Jesus. As far as I'm aware, though, most Jews still believe that a Messiah will one day appear. Presumably, they base this idea on scriptures other than Isaiah 53. What exactly this Messiah is supposed to do I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm not real conversant in OT prophecy, so could you guys give me some places where the OT does point toward a Messiah? And it would also be interesting if you could explain what he's supposed to do.

[Obsidian]

Oh come on. Surely some of you guys actually study your scriptures.

[Salty]

What a rude and asinine thing to write.

Here's a novel idea for you: maybe they don't sit in front of their screens watching for Obsidian to post a question for them on TWeb. Maybe, just maybe, they're a bit busy studying their scriptures.

If you're after a quick answer, Google is your friend. But since I'm here, I'll give you a brief list.

In the Messianic era, there will be:

World peace (Isaiah 2:4, 11:6)
Universal Knowledge and Recognition of G-d (Isaiah 11:9, Jeremiah 31:34)
The Resurrection of the Dead (Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 37:12)
The Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles (Isaiah 11:11, Isaiah 43:5, Jeremiah 23:8)
Observance of the law by every Jew (Ezekiel 37:24)
The Building of the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26)

And the messiah will be of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 note: tribal membership is passed down solely through the father's line), and a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

Much less than the 300+ non-messianic prophecies concocted by Christianity.

[Obsidian]

Well here's another asinine question for you, since you seem to be pouring over TWeb waiting for questions from Obsidian. I don't really see that any of those passages you listed talk about an individual "Messiah." Where did that idea come from?

Do you actually believe a Messiah will come, or is my characterization of the general Jewish belief inaccurate?

[headheart]

I'm not real.....................

Obsidian,

Apart from the fact that your question is probably too broad a consideration for a single post, and seeing as you admit to not being 'conversant with OT prophecy', as well as not showing due respect to those you desire to respond to your opening post, it might be better to acquaint yourself with what it is that our Jewish friends believe about 'certain passages from the OT' as well as studying the Scriptures regarding these matters.

You do not know how to show the sort of respect for those you expect a response/reply. I am really angry with the way in which you are posting here and hope that the Moderator of 'Judaism' gives you a severe warning.

Sincerely,
HH

[John Goddard]

I know that Jews tend to reject the notion that certain passages from the OT (e.g., Isaiah 53) pointed to Jesus. As far as I'm aware, though, most Jews still believe that a Messiah will one day appear. Presumably, they base this idea on scriptures other than Isaiah 53. What exactly this Messiah is supposed to do I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm not real conversant in OT prophecy, so could you guys give me some places where the OT does point toward a Messiah? And it would also be interesting if you could explain what he's supposed to do.

Try,

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
...
Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Although Isaiah 53 may be about all righteous Jews too, their Messiah is also assumed to be Jewish and righteous. So there is no clear reason as to why Isaiah 53 needs to exclude their Messiah.

[John Goddard]

You do not know how to show the sort of respect for those you expect a response/reply. I am really angry with the way in which you are posting here and hope that the Moderator of 'Judaism' gives you a severe warning.

I'm guilty of have a short fuse too, sometimes. Christian-Jewish dialogue is easily heated. Some on both sides should show more respect to the other side, me included.

[Obsidian]

Headheart, get a grip. My initial post was perfectly polite. And my second post was only slightly impolite -- because I was annoyed that people were ignoring me.

And for that matter, people still haven't really answered my question, although Salty at least made a decent attempt.

[Obsidian]

Heh, looking around, I get the idea that this sub-forum is just kinda dead compared to the other ones. And it seems like half the people posting in it are Christian anyway. Maybe I should just me more patient.

[John Goddard]

Heh, looking around, I get the idea that this sub-forum is just kinda dead compared to the other ones. And it seems like half the people posting in it are Christian anyway. Maybe I should just me more patient.

That's because in all the other forums when posters are questioned hard, it is just considered tough debate. When it happens in this forum, it is considered antisemitism.

It's a free pass to try to say whatever you want and never be questioned. One that I and others disregard. So they don't like that and steer clear for the most part.

[Salty]

That's because in all the other forums when posters are questioned hard, it is just considered tough debate. When it happens in this forum, it is considered antisemitism.

It's a free pass to try to say whatever you want and never be questioned. One that I and others disregard. So they don't like that and steer clear for the most part.

Rudeness toward Jews here is rarely considered anti-semitism, it's just, well, rudeness. Few people like to be on the receiving end of ugly words. I imagine that's why they steer clear after a while.

[Salty]

Well here's another asinine question for you, since you seem to be pouring over TWeb waiting for questions from Obsidian.

Oh good. We don't get enough people acting like jerks here. Glad you showed up to take up the slack!

I don't really see that any of those passages you listed talk about an individual "Messiah."

Then you're not really looking.

Where did that idea come from?

Funny thing is, it comes from those verses and those that surround them. Hoodathunkit? I'd be willing to guess that the Talmud further clarifies them.

Do you actually believe a Messiah will come, or is my characterization of the general Jewish belief inaccurate?

"I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day." (#12 of the 13 Principles of the Jewish Faith http://www.ou.org/torah/rambam.htm)

[John Goddard]

Rudeness toward Jews here is rarely considered anti-semitism, it's just, well, rudeness. Few people like to be on the receiving end of ugly words. I imagine that's why they steer clear after a while.

I am usually only mean-spirited when I'm drunk and don't know enough to stay off the Internet, I go into blackout insane mode and and shudder the next day to read what I've written. I'm a mean drunk. Alcohol is my own personal "thorn in the flesh" reminding me I'm spiritually no better and probably a lot worse as a person than others I've discussed theology with no matter what religion, and that I better practice what I preach so I don't go to Hell as a hypocrite.

That said...accusations of stealing the Jewish religion, of trying to tell Jews how to interpret their holy texts, etc. are also accusations of antisemitism, since it is either implied or even stated outright at times that Christians are trying to assimilate and destroy Jewishness.

I realize it is only natural since historical facts have reinforced these fears, regarding attacks by the Church, Hitler, etc.

But sometimes I think this argument is abused and used in place of real debate about religious issues. In that case, I think such self-righteous indignation is simply a distraction.

[Salty]

I am usually only mean-spirited when I'm drunk and don't know enough to stay off the Internet, I go into blackout insane mode and and shudder the next day to read what I've written. I'm a mean drunk. Alcohol is my own personal "thorn in the flesh" reminding me I'm spiritually no better and probably a lot worse as a person than others I've discussed theology with no matter what religion, and that I better practice what I preach so I don't go to Hell as a hypocrite.

Wow, John, I'll try to keep that in mind in the future. If you're fighting that, then I sincerely pray for your success.

That said...accusations of stealing the Jewish religion, of trying to tell Jews how to interpret their holy texts, etc. are also accusations of antisemitism, since it is either implied or even stated outright at times that Christians are trying to assimilate and destroy Jewishness.

But do you not agree that these are legitimate complaints? Can you at least understand why, outside of the use of those complaints as a reactionary/defensive measure in such forums as TWeb, it is pretty much true from the Jewish perspective that Christianity did hijack much of Judaism and syncretized it with pagan religion (whether or not you agree that is the case), you guys do tell Jews how to interpret their own texts which you feel is also yours and open to anyone for interpretation, and that for nearly 2,000 years Christians have and continue to actively and/or passively attempt to convert Jews to Christianity, which when successful does indeed eventually purge them of their Jewish identity (as history shows)?

[John Goddard]

Wow, John, I'll try to keep that in mind in the future. If you're fighting that, then I sincerely pray for your success.

Thanks, I'm a real nut when I'm drunk. I was sober for five months until April, moved back in with my ex-wife to try it again, and it's been hard resolving our differences, even with a marriage counselor. But it's no excuse for me to drink, so I'll have to work a lot harder staying sober, regardless of what goes on around me. As it is we fight, I get good and drunk, then go online to argue, like coming home to kick the dog after a bad day at work. So that's my huge lifestyle flaw I have to work on, and apologies for getting out of line. In all reality I respect religious Jews and Noahides for at least not denying God completely, despite our differences about Jesus.

But do you not agree that these are legitimate complaints? Can you at least understand why, outside of the use of those complaints as a reactionary/defensive measure in such forums as TWeb, it is pretty much true from the Jewish perspective that Christianity did hijack much of Judaism and syncretized it with pagan religion (whether or not you agree that is the case), you guys do tell Jews how to interpret their own texts which you feel is also yours and open to anyone for interpretation, and that for nearly 2,000 years Christians have and continue to actively and/or passively attempt to convert Jews to Christianity, which when successful does indeed eventually purge them of their Jewish identity (as history shows)?

I think it's a legitimate complaint if proselytizing/conversion/interpretation is forced on people, and I know it has been through history and still goes on today.

But in a voluntary forum known for debate, it is often going to be a two-way discussion to see which views are better, even though there is a time for just listening and asking questions. Like if someone here in this area posted how they built their sukkah, there should be little reason for debate. Then it's probably more appropriate to let them have the floor.

Beyond that, Jews debate the issues amongst themselves as well, and there are different denominations of Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc. Even if Christians are excluded in theory, which Jews does Judaism then really belong to? Hard to say.