Psychologists repudiate gay-to-straight therapy

[shunyadragon]

Friends

This is an interesting article found here -

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090806/ap_on_re_us/us_psychologists_gays

No solid evidence exists that such change is likely, says the report, and some research suggests that efforts to produce change could be harmful, inducing depression and suicidal tendencies.
The APA had criticized reparative therapy in the past, but a six-member task force added weight to this position by examining 83 studies on sexual orientation change conducted since 1960. Its comprehensive report was endorsed by the APA's governing council in Toronto, where the association's annual meeting is being held this weekend.

© source where applicable

This has many implications for traditional Christian theology including the free will arguments. If any one has any other sources on the subject please add them.


I can here the cries from the right already that that the APA is controlled by pinko left wing liberal atheists, with an agnostic minority..

[Mountain Man]

I've personally met former homosexuals who have made a clean break from their past, so I know for a fact that it's possible. However, I do agree with the general tone of the study suggesting that any counseling and therapy to that end must be undertaken with a great deal of care and compassion.

[TheologicalDisc]

1. Why do you cherry pick science?
2. If we assume that the scienctific evidence for the contrary does not exist(which is what you seem to be doing)and they are born that way, or it is natural, so what? we are all born with sin naturally. I am married and it is natural for me to lust as I am born that way, it is naturly a part of every human being, that does not mean I cannot resist the urge to do so. When someone punches me in the face it is natural to want to retaliate, it is natural, it does not mean I cannot resist. Same goes with gays, just like married men resist the urge to engage in adultry a gay person can resist the urge to engage in homosexuality.

[bridgeforsale]

Friends

This is an interesting article found here -

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090806/ap_on_re_us/us_psychologists_gays

No solid evidence exists that such change is likely, says the report, and some research suggests that efforts to produce change could be harmful, inducing depression and suicidal tendencies.
The APA had criticized reparative therapy in the past, but a six-member task force added weight to this position by examining 83 studies on sexual orientation change conducted since 1960. Its comprehensive report was endorsed by the APA's governing council in Toronto, where the association's annual meeting is being held this weekend.

© source where applicable

This has many implications for traditional Christian theology including the free will arguments. If any one has any other sources on the subject please add them.


I can here the cries from the right already that that the APA is controlled by pinko left wing liberal atheists, with an agnostic minority..

It's frankly absurd that so many people question the veracity of the mountain of evidence, which exists at this point .... telling us biology is a significant factor in sexual preference (although psychology is also a major factor). I went through this in a another thread & pointed to the many twin studies that have been done and so on & still I hear emphatic objections (mostly based on bad facts).

We don't question other mental conditions caused by biological factors, which deviate from the norm. Yet homosexuality is treated differently because of the stigma attached to it (even though it shouldn't be).

Some are born with a propensity toward obesity, others toward compulsive and addictive behavior, some have a predisposition for cancer or other illnesses, chemical imbalances that cause depression, autism, and yes some people are born with a biological predisposition toward homosexuality. I imagine, like anything else, the predisposition varies in severity. In some cases it can be overwhelmed by environmental and psychological conditioning. Yet in others it's obviously too strong to mitigate.

Given these facts, to remain logically consistent, you must either believe a lifelong practicing homosexual will not be condemned for his or her lifestyle choices, or in double predestination (or a combination of one and two). However, Arminian soteriology is difficult to reconcile with the idea of a biological predisposition toward any lifestyle or mental state that deviates from normal behavior (unless you completely reject the idea that there's a standard of conduct, enumerated by scripture, which marks the true believer).

[bridgeforsale]

1. Why do you cherry pick science?
2. If we assume that the scienctific evidence for the contrary does not exist(which is what you seem to be doing)and they are born that way, or it is natural, so what? we are all born with sin naturally. I am married and it is natural for me to lust as I am born that way, it is naturly a part of every human being, that does not mean I cannot resist the urge to do so. When someone punches me in the face it is natural to want to retaliate, it is natural, it does not mean I cannot resist. Same goes with gays, just like married men resist the urge to engage in adultry a gay person can resist the urge to engage in homosexuality.

That's an easy enough argument ... but it entails comparing adultery to homosexuality, which IMO is a fallacious analogy. After all the adulterer has a wife he can go home and have sex with. So it's not just sex with a woman he desires .... but rather sex with a different woman.

Completely different than being physically unable to share intimacy with a member of the opposite sex (or at least I imagine since I'm not personally gay). Moreover, there are some people (with mental illnesses) who couldn't resist punching the guy back as you can. Indeed it seems clear that some are born with a biological makeup, which deviates from the norm .... while others are more fortunate.

Imagine how depressing it must be to have a biological makeup, which deviates from virtually everyone else around you? This is why there's places like Greenwich Village and San Fransisco.

[TheologicalDisc]

That's an easy enough argument ... but it entails comparing adultery to homosexuality, which IMO is a fallacious analogy. After all the adulterer has a wife he can go home and have sex with. So it's not just sex with a woman he desires .... but rather sex with a different woman.

Good point. It kinda is a fallacious analogy. It doesn't take away from my initial point though, as there are celibate people out there.

Completely different than being physically unable to share intimacy with a member of the opposite sex (or at least I imagine since I'm not personally gay). Moreover, there are some people (with mental illnesses) who couldn't resist punching the guy back as you can. Indeed it seems clear that some are born with a biological makeup, which deviates from the norm .... while others are more fortunate.

The point I am making is you can resist what is naturally hardwired into you. Straight people turn gay, gay people turn straight, Shuny is just cherry picking science.

Imagine how depressing it must be to have a biological makeup, which deviates from virtually everyone else around you? This is why there's places like Greenwich Village and San Fransisco.

I don't think celibate people are depressed, but this is really all beside the point as there is plenty of scientific evidence that states homosexuality is not naturally hardwired.


http://www.narth.com/docs/hom101.html

When asked if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology, gay gene researcher, Dean Hamer, replied, "Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors"


2. If people were 'born that way' or the 'chemicals in their body make them that way' the following wouldn't be happening.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12585809

If homosexual orientation were completely genetic, one would expect that it would not change over the course of one's life. For females, sexual preference does seem to change over time. A 5-year study of lesbians found that over a quarter of these women relinquished their lesbian/bisexual identities during this period: half reclaimed heterosexual identities and half gave up all identity labels.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10749081

In a survey of young minority women (16-23 years of age), half of the participants changed their sexual identities more than once during the two-year survey period

https://www.sexscience.org/uploads/m...cleRosario.pdf

In another study of subjects who were recruited from organizations that serve lesbian/gay/bisexual youths (ages 14 to 21 years) in New York City, the percentage that changed from a lesbian/gay/bisexual orientation to a heterosexual orientation was 5% over the period of just 12 months (the length of the survey)

There is also plenty of anecdotal evidence on this as well.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56481

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56487

[Jaecp]

We don't question other mental conditions caused by biological factors, which deviate from the norm. Yet homosexuality is treated differently because of the stigma attached to it (even though it shouldn't be).

I would say that people object to homosexuality being an inherent quality mostly because then god had a rule in place for along time (and to some people, a law that should still be in affect) that made people into sinners based on how they were born, how god made them, essentially.

Throws a wrench into notions of free will, gods divine justice, and some other things.

Also, does the bible differentiate between bisexuality and the act of sleeping with another man? I don't think so. WLC's article on homosexuality said its fine if your gay, as long as you never actually have sex with another man.

Don't forget Hillcrest on those places. Not as well known as San Fransisco, but the weather is nicer in San Diego :)

[TheologicalDisc]

I
Throws a wrench into notions of free will, gods divine justice, and some other things.

No it doesn't. Everyone is born with sin and we all try our best to not engage in it, we all try to not sin. It is no different than gays and that is only under the assumption that they're born like that.

[Jaecp]

This is a bit different than that, Wesley already made a good point about this.

Whether we are all "born in sin" is different than if we have a genetic switch that makes ya gay.

[TheologicalDisc]

This is a bit different than that, Wesley already made a good point about this.

Whether we are all "born in sin" is different than if we have a genetic switch that makes ya gay.

The fact wesley made a good point does not take away from the overall point. There is no difference between being born with a genetic switch that makes you gay and being born with a genetic switch that makes you sin. Both of them can be resisted. There are celibate people on this planet. Obesity is thought to be a genetic disorder, and people conquer it all the time.

[Jaecp]

That obesity can be genetic doesn't make all fat people genetically obese. Your analogy doesn't work.

God doesn't want people to be gay, it says so in the bible
God creates people with a "gay gene" to use imprecise language.

Thats the crux of the issue, from a theological standpoint. Simply saying "we are all sinners" doesn't get around that if homosexuality is biological, then there is no free will in the matter. Your gay. If even one person has no choice in the matter of being gay, then god has taken out the freewill.

[TheologicalDisc]

That obesity can be genetic doesn't make all fat people genetically obese. Your analogy doesn't work.

Here we go. This is, according to your own logic, dishonest quoting by you. Where on earth did I state all fat people are genetically obese? wow. SHOW ME WHERE I SAID THAT.

Obesity is thought to be a genetic disorder, and people conquer it all the time.

That is what I said, and that says obesity is thought to be a genetic disorder. People with this genetic disorder conquer obesity.

God doesn't want people to be gay, it says so in the bible
God creates people with a "gay gene" to use imprecise language.

Ignorance.
1. God doesn't want people to be gay, it says so in the bible.
2. God only created adam and eve, everyone else was created by their mothers egg and fathers sperm, people are born that way because of sin in the world or sin from the parents etc.

or.

1. God doesn't want people to sin (which includes being gay) it says so in the bible
2. God creates people with a "sin gene" to use imprecise language.

or.

1. God doesn't want people to be gay, it says so in the bible
2. God creates people with a "gay gene" to use imprecise language.
3. The gay people can choose to become celibate.

Thats the crux of the issue, from a theological standpoint. Simply saying "we are all sinners" doesn't get around that if homosexuality is biological, then there is no free will in the matter. Your gay. If even one person has no choice in the matter of being gay, then god has taken out the freewill.

Sin is biological too, what part of that do you not understand? no free will? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? they can use their free will to BECOME CELIBATE. Do you know what that is? do you know what celibacy is?

I look forward to your very typical and predictable comments you will start posting now that your ridiculous points have been refuted, which includes but not limited too, dishonest quoting, ignoring points and ignoring questions.

[Jnthn]

There is ample evidence that sexuality is mutable and that homosexuals can and do change and their sexual preference towards hetrosexuality. It wouldn't be the first time politics has skewed this issue in the face of evidence for change.

J

[Jaecp]

Obesity is thought to be a genetic disorder, and people conquer it all the time.

The implication in this is obvious.

Since people can stop being fat, they can stop being gay.

Sin is biological too, what part of that do you not understand?

Really?

To the whole "becoming celibate" thing, god put some really powerful sexual in us, the whole celibacy thing sounds nifty, but how has it worked in practice?

Your bigger middle section

So, the gay gene was introduced when? I'm not sure on your stance on evolution. So what if god only made adam an eve personally? Parents pass on their genes to their kids.

Whats a "sin gene" ? The garden of eden had fruit that changed peoples DNA?

edit

Jnthn, I'd say that people tend to forget about bisexuals when having these kinds of discussions.

[shunyadragon]

There is ample evidence that sexuality is mutable and that homosexuals can and do change and their sexual preference towards hetrosexuality. It wouldn't be the first time politics has skewed this issue in the face of evidence for change.

J

What simple evidence?